First off I am NOT a reloader so this post may be in the wrong sub-forum but I think you guys might know more about my question.

I have a 102 year old S&W Model of 1905, 4th Change, that shipped October 1921 per Roy. I've got several posts about this gun over in the revolver forum.

Been looking for some factory ammo for many moons, and like many others, zip, zero, nada except for pure scam sites.

Anyway, got a tip, found a reliable site, and they have 32-20 Winchester, topped with 100 gr JHP, listed at 900 fps. The ammo is stated as Remanufactured".

Most of my searches, and from what I've gleaned off this Forum over the years has been that the old factory load was always 115 gr lead, at 850 fps. Seems like most Cowboy Action ammo on websites is listed at 115 gr also.

My revolver is in decent condition mechanically with no push-off, no excessive play or end shake, clean decent bore but I am concerned about the lighter bullet and the jacketed bullet.

I'll try calling the listing company when they open, but a lighter bullet possibly combined with modern powder (faster or slower) could cause a healthy pressure curve that could damage an old revolver. My serial number is after S& W started heat treating the cylinders, but I know from researching my old M1 Garand not to use modern 30-06 hunting ammo (even same grain weight) in the old Garand as the pressure curve is so much steeper.

Also...any comments about Reman ammo would be appreciated. I don't shoot reloads in my guns, even those of friends because I just don't know, and I have not yet experienced any reman ammo needs in any other caliber I shoot.

Thanks for listening and any advice or comments you all can make.

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Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

I am a reloader and generally don't shoot factory or remanufactured ammo (aka commercial reloads). However, I shoot a lot of 9mm in plate matches. I don't relish sitting in front of a Dillon to make buckets-full of 9mm ammo. I've started shooting LAX remanufactured 9mm in those matches. I don't need superb accuracy, but I need the ammo to go bang and not break my gun. So far, LAX has worked fine and the cost is about the same as my own reloads.

With that said, LAX is a well-known supplier. Certainly there are others just as good. I'd be cautious, though. Many of us have heard of "gun show reloads" and broken guns. No first hand knowledge here, just a word of caution.

Also, I don't know the 32-20 very well, but I'd be careful to select a loader that addresses any pressure concerns you might have with that old revolver.

If you are talking about the ammo sold by Wisconsin Cartridge the ammo is loaded to very light pressure. If it is really there you ought to buy it. It's probably not there. This is subsonic and very light bullets.

32-20 Win 100 gr JHP 900 fps (50 Rounds)(Reman) – Wisconsin Cartridge, LLC

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

I will let you decide. Several points about this:

1: "Remanufactured" ammunition is reloaded, just by a commercial reloader instead of an individual.

2: Reloaded ammunition is not inherently evil, but caution should be exercised in what you choose to use in your gun.

3.: Historically .32-20 was loaded with bullets ranging from 100 to 125 grains. Bullet weight is not a concern. Bullet type, lead vs. jacketed is not an issue regarding pressure, although jacketed bullets will cause somewhat more barrel wear on any older guns manufactured before WWII.

4: Age of the gun is not a concern, S&W .32-20 guns were made from 1899 to c. 1930, catalogued until 1940 with last shipping date ca. 1965. As long as the gun is in good mechanical condition age is of no concern! Cylinders were heat-treated starting in ca. 1918, so your gun does have a heat-treated cylinder. Based on your pictures your gun is no later than 1921 to 1922 (no "made in USA on frame).

5: Any ammunition not exceeding 900 FPS should be safe in any revolver made by S&W.

I have been loading for and shooting S&W .32-20 revolvers since my first, a 6 1/2" Model 1902 made ca. 1905, was bought in ca. 1963. I own several S&W and Colts in this caliber made from 1905 to ca. 1928.

I have no knowledge of any specific reloading company, so I will not make any comments about that. All I can say is to avoid ammunition from any company that claims their ammunition is loaded to +P pressures!

Any other questions feel free to ask in a PM.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

I would never buy loose 32-20 or any other reloads from a gun show or individual. Too much danger to gun and shooter.

Face it - gun shows and gun sellers are often scoundrels, liars, and thieves there for a fast buck and a faster skedaddle after you've spent your money on a great unknown.

IF there is a remanufacturer with a solid track record with legitimate favorable reviews, that's different. Then I'd consider it.

Save your empty brass cases .

Generally revolvers made after 1900 are safe with smokeless powder .
A 100 gr. bullet @ 900 fps loading is probably in the same pressure range as a 115 gr. bullet @850 . What I don't care for is the Jacketed bullet . Lead bullets are easier on barrel steel and easier to get moving down the barrel .
One box shouldn't hurt your revolver at all and will leave you with some brass that is hard to come by .

I would think about a Lee Hand Press , a set of reloading dies and getting started in a fun hobby ... Reloading 32-20 Win. !

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

It is a fact that jacketed ammunition raise the chamber pressure over lead, since lead acts as a lubricant while jacketed puts increased resistance through the barrel. Problem is that no one seems to know how much pressure rise you will see. The old M&Ps were not designed for jacketed bullets so I do not use them.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I would pass on that ammunition. Instead check out Black Hills 32-20 Cowboy Ammunition. They load a 115 gr. FPL at 800 fps using 5.5” test barrel.

The 32-20 is my favorite cartridge. I have shot many thousands of rounds I have reloaded using 115 gr. FPL bullets at about the same velocity. I have a couple of single action revolvers and a carbine. I have never used a jacketed bullet in them.

Black Hills has been in business for a long time and they are using new brass cases. They have a long list of customers and, according to their website, all branches of the U.S. military buys their match 5.56 ammunition.

I would not buy that ammo, and here is my opinion:
Those reloads are advertised under their rifle ammo links on their website.
32-20 standard load for a rifle would be about 1200 fps with a 115 lead bullet. They are claiming 900 fps with a 100 JHP. This is a problem.

You need to slug your bore. S&W 32-20 HE are typically oversized bores....mine is .314 And these JHP 100gr bullets most likely are .311-.312. They will not bump up on that light charge. You will have stuck bullet in the barrel. As a general rule, please do not shoot jacketed bullets in these revolvers.

32-20 is a rifle cartridge... any claimed FPS, FPE by a manufacture should reflect use in a rifle. Their 900fps with a 100 gr JHP appears to me as a really low charge, guaranteed to get stuck in your barrel.

The way to get the best out of an older gun like this is to reload for it. It is a pretty straight forward round to reload for. Once Starline gets back up again with a run of 32-20 brass will not be a problem. The only technical problem that I have encountered is that 32-20 brass is thin and is more easy deformed during the reloading process.

I have had great luck with the .313 dia 115 gr RNFP from Missouri Bullet Co. The Lyman Cast Bullet book has some very good established data for the caliber.

I have been using AA# 5 with this bullet and data from the Lyman book.
It shoots great in my 1913 vintage 5” M&P.

With carefully prepared reloads you should be able to enjoy you old 32-20 for a long time to come. So I would say that if you want to get the most out of this or any other older gun that’s shoots an expensive hard to find caliber reloading is the best option.

The best place to start is by learning as much as possible about the reloading process and then do some research on what’s out there for equipment. The major players offer some very good basic single stage presses and other required equipment.

While this does require an investment in equipment once you are set up for 32-20 it is a quick and easy step to add further calibers. If for example you were to squire a nice old S&W or Colt in .32 S&W Long, .38 S&W , 44-40 etc. you are already in the driver seat as far as having ammunition goes.

I have used commercial reloads in .38 Special and .45 ACP and had good and no complaints. I am however glad that I made the investment in equipment to roll my own.

That is a nice looking .32-20. Mine is in about the same condition and is a ball to shoot along with my other old stuff.

Good Luck with yours.

Just out of curiosity I checked out the link in post #3 for the "remanufactured" ammo. I need to ask, is 32-20 ammo really selling for $70 for a box of 50! Is that a good price? Especially for reloads.

I just went on GB to see what 32-20 brass would cost and wow. I guess $70 for 50 rounds isn't all that bad. You could pay a LOT more than that for mixed headstamp brass.

The LGS has some UltraMax brand 32-20 ammo, 115 gr lead, loaded in Starline cases. $100 per box of 50. The UltraMax plant was located in Rapid City, SD, but burned down a few years ago.

Yup, I bought a couple of boxes. It is accurate in my 1892 Winchester and Freedom Arms 97. Until Starline or someone else produces cases again, you pay the price or don't shoot. And, yes, I do reload, so that lessens the $$ pain a bit.

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S&WCA #1955, S&WHF #818

I wouldn't trust ammo like that for a vintage gun.

If those numbers are correct, then your gun should be able to handle that category of loading. That's well within the "pistol" category. But I'd trust big brand ammo or your own reloads.

Getting a gun like this but not being a reloader is like buying a horse but not having property. It's a commitment. If you don't want to reload, this probably isn't the pistol for you, unless you just want it as a display piece.

A reloading setup for low volume 32-20 would set you back literally only a few boxes of factory 32 ammo these days. A little RCBS partner press mounted on a 2x4 and some dippers and a scale is all you really need. The cost savings for reloading in a small, obscure caliber like 32-20 is DRAMATIC, and you won't ever have to hunt for it again like you do now.

It's pretty good considering none has been available for years. The stuff on GB or GI is low hanging fruit for suckers who have more money than brains.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

Wow. Those are insane prices. It's like 28 gauge loads. They use far less components than 12 ga but cost 2x more.

32-20, once you eat the cost of brass and are able to cast your bullets, is like $8-9.00 per 50.

Even buying precast and coated bullets would bring you down to about $12 or so per box (most of that cost is the stupid primer). I dislike reloading bottleneck cases, but I could get used to it at those prices.

Just buy legitimate factory ammunition. With a 102 year old revolver I will not take it out every month to shoot.

I completely agree with these comments.

I also use 115 gr. FPL 313” bullet and AA#5. AA#5 is fine grain powder so it flows and settles easily in the case.

Since the case mouth is thin and easily damaged I reload on my RCBS Rockchucker Press. As the brass cases must be lubed it is a slower cartridge to reload. With a little care brass lasts a long time.

I use R-P brass cases.

The 32-20 was considered to be a adequate deer cartridge until the Gun ‘riters and Internet ‘xperts told us it wasn’t powerful enough. Yet now Gun ‘riters and Internet ‘xperts say the .223/5.56 is good enough for deer hunting. Go figure.

If I had been a lawdog prior to W.W.2 I would have carried a 32-20 double action 4” barrel revolver. Truth be known if I was forced to only own one cartridge (say by the Government) I would be comfortable with only owning the 32-20 handgun and rifle combination. I would use hot Jacketed Bullets in the rifle and 115 gr. FPL bullet downloaded in my revolver.

I added a Cimarron Single Action Revolver last year and would love to have a Colt PPS as a match to my Colt PPS .38 Special.

If it were me I would be shooting Black Hills cowboy action ammo in my 32-20.
They sell a 115gr LFN bullet round @800 fps. I'm sure that will be kinder to your revolver than jacketed bullet ammo.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

To all who posted opinions and answers to my original post I thank you very much. I really like this Forum just because one gets "all sides" of opinions and answers to just about ANY question you post whether it is about Smith & Wesson, or other guns, gun smithing, or things completely unrelated!

I received some PM's and some very good answers about using/not using the Remanufactured ammo as noted from Wisconsin Cartridge Co.

I thought that $70.00 for 50 rounds was decent enough for me in todays world, so price wasn't the issue. The Jacketed Hollow Point was an issue for me in a 102 year old gun.

I phoned to Wisconsin Cartridge Co. yesterday and discussed this exact ammo with I believe, the Owner. A very nice gentleman, and yes..it is remanufactured (commercially reloaded as others have posted) to Sammi specs and QC checked before shipment. With the above established, the gentleman told me this would NOT be good for my old 32-20 because the jacketed bullet could be very hard on the rifling of the old barrel. I decided to not buy this ammo, which leaves Wisconsin Cartridge Co with 88 boxes in stock for those of you that may use this in rifles or whatever. At the very least it is a real company, with real people who answer the phone, and states very plainly that they do not ship with UPS due to theft, and use Fed-Ex ground only. I have no commercial interest in this company, just relaying my experience because of all the scammers out there, particularly with this caliber.

I realize that to use or not use this ammo is my decision alone, and again...I thank you all for your opinions and comments.

I've decided that I am now doing some research and starting a learning curve on reloading. I'll be hanging out a little more often on the reloading sub-forum checking things out on equipment and knowledge, and probably (most likely) asking the same dumb noobie questions I did here when just starting to learn about S&W revos.

I just took delivery of 200 rounds American Eagle (Federal) 30-06 rifle ammo, specifically made for (and labelled) the M1 Garand from CMP. Sure it was costly, but I'm sure it won't be going cheaper in the future and I want to shoot the old girl so another reason to start seriously looking at reloading.

Thanks all...it is a pleasure to work with you folks on this Forum!!!

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Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

$70 for a box of 32 WCF brass is a great price today. I have two Colt and one S&W revolver that shoot 32 WCF. If I did not trust this ammo I would buy it and pull all 50 bullets, something I have done many times in the past with gun show reloads. If you are going to reload for this caliber in the future you are going to need brass. There is no other source that I know of.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

I disagree, and what does "bump up" mean, obturate?

About 15 years ago I bought a 1907 Winchester.351 SLR. I always liked these guns for the same reason I like 1897 Winchesters and old S&W and Colt revolvers. As we all know .351 SLR ammunition is not easy to find. I friend of mine with a 1907 bought some of the last of Winchesters final run from the 1980s. He offered me a box of 50 for $50. So for a dollar a round I had start up brass. I have added a few hounded cases mas from .357 max. Bullets are 180 gr plated round nose. Data is from an ancient Lyman Book for 4227 or 2400. I have 300 rounds of this caliber waiting for the next time I want to take it to the range. Or maybe if I find another one and want to shoot it right away. The only real problem now is that the 1907 kicks the brass out in all directions so I have to be careful not to loose any.

I am not knocking the custom loaded stuff. However now that the price of a set of Redding dies and reloadable brass has been written off this is now a economical gun to shoot.

About 'bump-up', I took this to mean swell and seal the barrel, as some undersize lead bullets do.

OK....my opinion... and I error on the side of safety;
32WCF is a rifle cartridge!! If the ammo manufacture publishes a certain FPS or FPE without providing the barrel length, then you must assume that data is from a rifle barrel.
Winchester publishes FPS and FPE on their box, without saying if from a rifle or a revolver, so is safe to say that is rifle data.
Black Hills ammo publishes their 32WCF load and they tell you it's from a 5.5 inch test barrel.
The manufacture linked does not tell you from a rifle or a revolver, so you have to assume it is rifle data... which would be a very low charge. 900 FPS from a revolver would be a standard load.... but they do not say. Remington used to manufacture 32WCF with a 100gr jacketed soft point but they stopped doing it. Jacketed bullets are not good in these revolvers.

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	Black Hills ammo.png (19.1 KB, 13 views)

You may need a little educating. 32 WCF was introduced as a rifle cartridge by Winchester. Around 1885 Colt started chambering their SAA for the cartridge. By 1892 Winchester started making a much stronger rifle in 32 WCF. In response the ammunition makers started loading a RIFLE ONLY version of the 32 WCF.

Any RIFLE ONLY ammunition will be labeled as such if the manufacturer follows SAAMI rules.

Smith and Wesson first chambered their Revolvers for 32 WCF in 1899. I own one and it is a fine piece to shoot. Revolvers are shot with revolver only loads in 32 WCF and many other cartridges.

I reload lots of cartridges for 32 WCF since I own three revolvers that use that caliber. I started with three boxes of factory cartridges, all of which use a jacketed soft point and all of which are perfectly suited to revolvers. That's how I got all my brass - I have no reason to believe any cartridge at 900 FPS would cause any damage what so ever.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

You see, I'm not the only one suggesting this ammo. I made the same suggestion in Post #20. I agree with the above, that round will be very safe in your gun and not over stress the barrel.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Thank you for the follow-up. It's great to hear about a company that is straightforward and honest in their customer service.

Welcome to the world of handloading. I'm sure many of us will be happy to offer any help you want!

I think what we have here is "Failure To Communicate"

My concern is not that this Wisconsin reloaded 32-20 is too powerful for the S&W HE. My concern is that it is undercharged.
Wisconsin lists this load under their rifle ammo.....900 FPS with a 100gr JHP. THIS IS UNDERCHARGED. IF you shot this out of a pistol it would be 600 FPS and a .311-.312 JHP would likely get stuck in barrel that is .314.
When you look for Wisconsin pistol reloads, it comes up with the rifle listing.. again at 900FPS. WHICH IS IT?
900 FPS in a rifle?
or
900 FPS in a pistol?
With out printed data... ?

@Brooks, calm down.
If you look on that site that same load is listed under the handgun ammo too. Without calling or writing them you can't be sure if they tested the ammo in a long barrel or a shorted handgun barrel. You can't make assumptions without fact so please relax.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

The last box I sold...cheap...was the older white box Winchester. It had 115 gr jacketed HPs. Supposedly at 920 FPS(revolvers) and it was marked for revolvers or rifles. I still have a couple boxes of Win 115 gr lead marked for both rifle and handguns. Same white box era ammo. I have shot both in my 1908 shipped S&W with adjustable sights. Does about 960 fps out of it. Going to sell that one as I have a mid 20's 32-20 S&W also...and a Buckeye Ruger BH Combo 32H&R/32-20.

Hey Skeet,

I don't know about the older 32-20's, but that Ruger Buckeye is built like a tank. I can't imagine what it would take to wound it. However, trying to find any 32-20 ammo is tough. The shortage is real when you see $2.25 each on gunbroker (gougers selling water to thirsty folks in the desert) and nothing at Starline. They will not even take backorders, which is rare for me to see at Starline.

I was just teased over on SingleActions forum about saying that Starline wouldn't be producing any 32-20 brass for quite a while. It was hinted at, by a supposed insider, that Starline may be quicker than I think. A hundred folks have left ratings with comments about wanting .25-20 and .218 Bee for forming their own calibers from the 32-20. There must be hundreds that didn't leave comments.

There seems to be a GINORMOUS backlog of demand for that 32-20 brass by more than just 32-20 afficionados.
I've allowed myself to hope for the best, and plan for the worst.

I am damn careful about reloading what little 32-20 brass I have left, because if your powder measurer misses just a tiny bit, that bottle-neck brass can crush easily. A little tricky, but just be careful. I spend around $.10 a handload, but that's using original prices on my components. New components might go to $.33 each cartridge. Primers $.10 + new Brass $.30 + Powder $.03.
I wouldn't blame Starline at all for raising prices on 32-20. It's not their high return compared to other calibers. I paid around $.25 as I recall, but $.30 and up seems more likely. But you can never tell about that family-run business like Starline. Those are some phenomenally nice folks.

So I'm perusing threads like this and going back to 32 S&W long trying to decide what level of ammo can I shoot in my old 32's.
I strongly suggest that any handloaders stock up on all their .32 brass.
Starline 327federal magnum is sold out and is NOT taking backorders. 32 S&W short is sold out, but will take backorders.


Prescut

FYI,


K frame 32-20 heat treating began in 1919 at approximate serial number 81,287. Check your serial in relation to that.

Regarding jacketed ammunition in old barrels. Many get concerned because they feel it is hard on rifling. Steels jackets certainly are. Brass jackets or gilding metal are softer than steel. Harder than lead, certainly, but still softer than the steel used by S&W for the barrel.

One box may accelerate wear but I do not believe it will make your revolver a smooth bore.

Others may or may not agree.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Well the buyer of that box of ammo I sold wasn 't worried. He had a 1900 or so SAA he was shooting it in. John Linebaugh. He knew a little
E about bbls...I think. He even told me that it wasn't likely to hurt any 32-20 with factory ammo made since the 1920s. He wanted more of my brass too.I bought a 100 Starline at the same show...new. But the seller had it for a while. I am lucky to have about 500 pieces and get rid of none. And that Ruger has a heck of a cylinder on it...same with the 32 HR mag

Sure miss John.....what a grand gentleman. Would visit with him at Shiptons downtown store in Billings on Wednesday afternoons.

Quite a crew of educated gun enthusiasts. With his passing I am not sure that crew still meets.

Randy

Still a few left. I used to get a Blackhawk or super he could use. He liked the Bisley better.

It's 2023 . In the best of times .32-20 is a niche ctg nowadays .The ammo industry still hasn't normalized since most recent ammo panic , and probably won't before the next panic starts next year , so low sales volume calibers are still scarce .

Black Hills has list price of $50 , bit I'd be surprised if they actually turned any out since 2020 .

So no , right now $ 70 isn't outrageous for non popular ammo that physical exists that you can purchase.

I believe that the ammo company owner said that , but I would take that with a grain of salt

He could have just heard " older S&W " and given a generic recomendation .. Notwithstanding my liking of cast bullets , I wouldn't be unduly concerned with jacketed bullets in a K frame of that vintage , .38 or .32

Yes , introduced in Win M73 in 1882 . Heck , I have a cpl Savage 23 in .32-20 . But I have little doubt that since 1900s ( decade) that more revolvers made in .32-20 than rifles ." Rifle Only:" factory ammo hasn't been mfg since WWII .It's been a defacto pistol ammo for 50 plus years.

SAAMI pressure is 16K CUP , very mild for a heat treated K frame .

Worst case - a .312 jhp would have less accuracy than a .314 cast bullet , but you'd have to shoot it to know if accuracy is acceptable.

I shoot my cast reloads in mine all the time. Got some factory stuff(NOT HV)...........Some post really knots up people's shorts

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S&W Accumulator

I think I would trust John Linebaugh. We were talking about 32-20 one day. He looked at my 32-20 1908 S&W. Told me it would handle any ammo made since WW II and probably stuff made before even rifle ammo. He did say to keep the number of jacketed bullets down as they would possibly wear the bore a bit more. He had a couple of pre-post 1900 SAAs he shot with everything...oh he needed 32-20 cases too. Just like most of us

Two boxes left as of this morning. No brass anywhere else. Buy it if you want any. None is available anywhere else that I know of.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

This ! If you have zero now , 100 is better . And save the brass .

Even if you are not inclined for Handloading as a hobby in itself, you need to in order to semi regularly shoot a no longer common caliber