I bought a new box of ammo the other day for my 642. It is a box of 38 special wadcutters. Just glancing at the rounds, there is no bullet protrusion. I have not heard of these before and have not been to the range to shoot any of them yet either.

Are these just range quality rounds? Are they self defense type stuff? Looking for some guidance here.

Thanks,
Joe

Wadcutters have been traditionally used for target shooting as they tend to cut a clean hole that, in theory, is easier to see when you’re spotting your shots. In the past, lots of folks have carried them in their snub-nosed revolvers as the idea is, since the cartridge only attains 650-800ish feet per sec, one can’t rely on consistent expansion, so they opt for a wide, deep path “cut” by the wadcutter bullet.

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Some Might Say.

Now I know I'm old, when a shooter has never heard of a wadcutter.

9mm has ruined everything...

They were (are) popular for bullseye (now called "precision") shooting, where the full caliber clean-cut hole gave you a slight advantage sometimes in scoring. The full-caliber hole might just cut a scoring ring that a hit in the exact same spot with a round nose bullet would not.

They are well-known for their accuracy which is primarily due to the bore contact along their entire length.

LOL I'm with you on that. I guess we shouldn't be surprised, since they are only used in revolvers (OK and the Model 52) and Bullseye/Precision is waning in popularity (I'm being kind).

38 wadcutters have always been my favorite target round. Back in the "old days" when I could afford to buy one, my distorted logic turned it down because S&W didn't make optional 7 or 8 round mags, just the professional 5 round target type.

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Heavily armed old man.

I'm surprised the OP even found a box of wadcutter for sale...

Back in the day (40 years ago), you could walk into any store that sold the slightest amount of ammo, and find a box of factory .38 Special wadcutter.

About 98% of police agencies used the .38 Special or .357 magnum revolver, and most of them trained and qualified with .38 Special wadcutter or RNL rounds. My agency issued the Model 13-3 .357 Magnum, and we shot over 2000 rounds of .38 Special wadcutter in training at the academy, including qualification. We shot about 100 rounds total of .38 Special +P LHP ammo in combat courses for "familiarization". At that time, that ONE agency purchased nearly 10 MILLION rounds of .38 Special wadcutter ANNUALLY for training and qualification at the academy and throughout the field.

Today, I did a quick scan of ammoseek.com and not a single round of .38 Special wadcutter was shown from Federal, Speer, Blazer, Remington or Winchester. Major factory ammo was limited to Magtech (Brazil) and Fiocchi (USA/Italy).

Whither 9mm...

Back during the time when three-gun (.22, any CF, and .45) competitive Bullseye target shooting was about the only handgun shooting game in town, nearly every shooter used Colt or S&W .38 target revolvers for any CF, and mild wadcutter bullet loads. Then many shooters quit using revolvers altogether, and switched to semiautos in .22 and .45 ACP for all three stages. A three-gun 2700 point match could easily take a full long afternoon. It took some stamina to get through a match on a hot day.
There is nothing wrong about using full wadcutter loads in a .38 Special personal defense revolver as they were as effective against the BGs as any other .38 Special load of the time, maybe even more so. And that is still true.

Vaguely remember reading some "Skeeter" stories about loading the bullet in the case upside down for "defense" ammo?

It's not that I feel the need to "one up" your post, that's not at all my thought behind this, it's simply that there is a little-known sect of enthusiasts that enjoy odd stuff and it's fun to share your passion with others.

Colt produced some .38 Wadcutter guns in the National Match 1911. Sig produced one that looks much like a P210 though I cannot recall the model number. Slick, scarce and expensive, I would love to have one.

In the .32cal, Pardini makes fantastic wadcutter semiautos and I think they have recently started to move from .32 S&W Long to a .32 ACP based gun but these are popular in Europe for Bullseye-style competition. As well, Walther makes a great .32cal wadcutter gun called the GSP. I have one of those and they are extremely accurate.

One other bit about the swaged hollow-base wadcutter bullet that may not be obvious is that the hollow cavity in the rear of the bullet expands under pressure and the lightly constructed soft lead bullet obturates to the bore which also (theoretically?) aids in accuracy.

Indeed, these bullets make short work of scoring targets for match officials.

They are good quality rounds for competitive shooting. All bullets are capable of killing. They are commonly recommended for revolvers for Senior Citizens and those with arthritis.

You are good to go.

I am a reloader and did that 50 years ago. Actually Dean Grennel the writer of, The ABCs of Reloading should be credited with that.

I had one and I believe it was made in 1964. Colt made them from 1960 to 1973. (The best ones were made before 1970)

Sevens, you’re probably thinking of the P240.

Back to the OP’s question, long ago two types of wadcutters were common. There was a type that exposed maybe 3/32”or 1/8” of the bullet, commonly referred to as button-type, around here, and the flush-seated type used in autoloaders. The Colt NM .38 may have been able to use both types, but I can’t recall with certainty.

Is this what you refer to? If so, the flush-seated wadcutters were, as far as I can recall, the equal of the button-type in every way, as far as accuracy and velocity. Different individuals favored different types, based on their gun and personal preference, if they were revolver shooters. I always preferred the flush-seated version, but probably was never a good enough shot to tell the difference.

As mentioned, wadcutters (and semi-wad cutters - there is a difference), were/are mostly used in competition because their design punches perfect holes in paper targets as opposed to FMJ ammo, making scoring easier. Wad Cutters do not protrude past the case as Semi Wadcutters do. Both make clean holes in paper.

Semi Wadcutter


Wadcutter

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SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

At least from my observations, factory full WC loads have bullets loaded flush with the case mouths. But some bullets made for use by handloaders may protrude slightly above the case mouth. Then there are double ended WC bullets, flat on both ends, and hollow base WC bullets which are loaded with the cavity down inside the case. They can expand under pressure to fully fill the bore. They all typically weigh 148 grains.

Long ago when most cops wore .38 revolvers, I would see some of them having full WC loads in their gunbelt leather cartridge loops.

At one time, I used full WC bullets in nearly all of my .38 Special handloads, loaded over three grains of Bullseye or similar propellants. For most of my shooting I didn't need anything else.

Colt 1911 National Match Mid Range shot wadcutters as did the S&W 52. Very, very accurate Colt, just sold mine.

I haven't been able to find wadcutters on any store shelf in years. It's my favorite load for my favorite guns, S&W .38's K and J frames. A couple of months back I got a 1,000 round case of Fiocchi which is a very light recoiling load. I'm saving them for my LEOSA qualifications. Twice the price of 9mm ammo.

Before I went on the job and got free bullets I would buy wadcutter reloads. Cost $2. a box with trade in empties. Those were the days. And yeah I reloaded too. Upside down wads were very popular then.

Don't assume the cast WC will always provide best accuracy. Lots of changeable factors involved including bore twist rate. A cast SWC may outshoot it. It's best to do accuracy comparisons benchrested at 25 yards using a variety of loads.

Here Is a thread I started recently. Let’s see if I can get this to work:

Wadcutters still relevant?

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otis

I love 'em, just takes a bit more care to load the chambers.
Haven't seen any for sale in a while.

Back in the 80's and early 90's , I shot a boatload of .38 Spcl wadcutters . They sure did lead up the barrels of my guns though . I bought one of those Lewis Lead Removers to clean them . It worked pretty well .

Sorry - Picture from 2014
10 yards standing offhand 1960 M36

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2B1ASK1

Wadcutters can be seated flush. Some I've reloaded have a groove and I seat them to put a light crimp in the groove. Any seating that works is acceptable.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

A 38 special, 148 gr lead HBWC can have a OAL of 1.155" all the way out to 1.31"
if it is of the BBwc 141gr 358495, button top, design.

With a revolver, one can play with a longer OAL with these lead bullets
to see if they might give better groups.

However, with the P52 pistol, most need the short OAL to feed and eject properly
with the light powder loads, used, to get maximum fps, from the light charges
that make a pound of powder last a lot longer, if one rolls their own.

When I got my first handgun, a Model 19, I shot a lot of 38 wadcutters. The dealer I got the gun from sold reloaded wadcutters for about $2.00 a box of 50. No idea who loaded them, they were just loose in a generic box. I can't remember if I traded in my brass or not, but someone mentioned that and it rang a bell, so I probably did.

Eventually I got a Lee Loader and started reloading my own. I bought Zero (brand) wadcutters 500 to a box. A can of Bullseye went a long way. I scrounged brass wherever I could find it. Primers were the big expense, and I forget how much they were. I'd load 100, shoot 100, and start over. Always seated the bullet flush with the case mouth. That's the way the ones I bought were, that's what I did.

I did try that reverse HBWC trick. It wasn't scientific, but they sure made an impressive hole in a bank of Virginia red clay.
I think I could have put my fist in there.

I've gone back to shooting wadcutters again. I use Berrys HBWC now though. No exposed lead at the indoor range. They seem to shoot just fine with the standard charge of Bullseye. I don't use the Lee Loader anymore, but I still have it. Never know when you might need it.

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John 3:16 .

No offense taken. I'm familiar with all those but for the purposes of making a point I left out the long-gone models and the oddballs.

Then there's the .38 AMU...

I was given around 200 rounds of .38 wad cutters from a retired police officer probably twenty years ago. I specifically use those when I acquire a new revolver for the initial range day to see how it performs. Getting low now…..

I hear you. The lack of availability of wadcutters—not to mention the outrageous price when I did come across them—was what finally motivated me to finally start reloading a decade or so ago.

Wadcutters. What's not to like.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

They are rounds designed for target shooting (they make a cleaner hole, which is advantageous, as shots touching the line will count for the higher score). I have shot many of them. They are typically designed to be lighter recoil.

I agree that they are ment to used for target work, in the fact that they do leave a nice round hole that is easy to score, on paper targets.


However you do see data and gel test, that some shooters think will work for them
in the guns that they are using and the recoil and results of this ammo.

Over the years I have found that a HBwc will give me the BEST accuracy out of my snub nose to 6" barrels in my revolvers.

As noted, they are getting hard to find and I now save my HB and am shooting the BBwc style, in my revolvers, that comes close to the HB in accuracy.

Both styles need to be tested to see which you prefer, if you can find them.
I also shoot the lighter 125 lead TC or RN lead bullet for extra light recoil loads
that has minimum recoil in a 16oz J frame , with a 600fps loading.

Factory stuff runs around 800fps in their "Cowboy" ammo.

Tight groups.

I picked these up at the local store not too long ago. But they are not exactly giving them away.

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Our PD had a Star reloading machine and our Auxiliary officers would cast wadcutters for the reloading process. We had a 55 gallon drum filled with loaded WC rounds. You could scoop them out with a coffee can and shoot until your gun was filthy. In an effort of maximum economy the rounds were loaded so lightly that you could actually see the bullet traveling downrange to the target!

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Tony

I wound up with six boxes of the Winchester .38 wadcutter ammo with the the purchase of a Model 52 some years ago, but the boxes are older than those in your photo. I was disappointed in the accuracy. My handloads using an H&G#50 and Bullseye powder were more accurate, something I would never expect. Perhaps I got a bad batch of the Winchester ammo.

The "fad" of loading wadcutters upside down wasn't so much a "fad", as a rather clever idea-------for enhancing their use as defense loads. The enhancement arises from the fact they were talking about (AND USING) hollow BASE wadcutters--------which upside down are now hollow POINT bullets. And as an aside, I'll go so far as to suggest they were loaded a bit warmer than my favorite Bullseye load of 2.7 grains---and their bullets were cast considerably softer than might be otherwise be the case.

All in all, it was a pretty sneaky idea.

Ralph Tremaine

As another aside, the hot set-up back in the days of Bullseye competition, was to empty your piggybank into a box along with your gun, and send it off to THE gunsmiths of the day. The gun came back with the cylinder the same length as a wadcutter cartridge, and a made to order barrel which was set back to meet the cylinder---as in ZERO throat length. That was immediately decried as "NO FAIR!!"---at least until you get one of your own---and at least have a chance of winning.

A few things in this discussion have not yet been mentioned:

You've got to keep your head about you when you are loading soft swaged HBWC, especially if you are feeling crafty and loading them upside down. The bullets are not "tough" in comparison to any jacketed bullet with a gilding metal and they are not "tough" when compared to virtually ANY cast lead bullet. The target HBWC is typically made from soft lead wire forced through a die not at all unlike the Play-Doh factory some of us played with as kids, or with your kids or Grandkids if you are of a particular age.

As such, these bullets are quite specifically designed around a speed envelope of 700-800 fps and bad things can happen when you blatantly ignore that.

A hollow base wadcutter with too heavy a charge can blow the core right out of the bullet leaving a full-caliber lead ring. If you are lucky, it will leave this ring in your cartridge case.

If you are unlucky, it will leave this ring in your bore. If you are further unlucky and have no idea that it has happened, you may see catastrophic failure if you take the next shot with this obstruction.

As an avid hobbyist handloader, I certainly love to experiment, but the experience and knowledge of others who have seen some of these experiments go awry is information, data and test results that are to be ignored by only the foolish.

As for inverting wadcutters for possible defensive use, it would be my position that something viable or valuable with 1978 technology may not be the miracle answer in 2023 with current bullet technology and availability.

If you venture in to these places, please report your findings. And for anyone who has, shoots, loads for and loves a Model 52 pistol, do note that Clark Custom currently offers a newly manufactured replacement barrel for the Model 52, which might come in handy if you bulge your barrel playing antiquated tricks with old-tech bullets in a pistol not made in more than 30 years. FWIW, Clark may also be able to help you replace a revolver barrel if you bulge one of those in a similar adventure.

In either case, bring your wallet.

Some people feel they are totally effective self-defense rounds, especially out of small hide-out guns.

I might be wrong, but i think wadcutters are perfect for bringing some fairness into a self defense situation. Giving your opponent the opportunity to kill you and your family despite you hit him 6 times.
Yes, even .22 subsonic "can" kill a major pig under best conditions.
But you need something which not only "can", but _will_ disable the threat as instantly as possible.

And these are certainly no wadcutter loads.

But you need something which not only "can", but _will_ disable the threat as instantly as possible.[/QUOTE]

Well a .50 cal. BAR will come pretty close.

But the reason many of us who carried a .38 J frame for a living like the 148 gr. wadcutter is because with a 1.8" barrel and gutter sights, a instinctive fast tight group was necessary. The "hot" loads of the day would produce a extreme muzzle flash, not helpful working night shift. Yes there are numerous self defense loads now made for short barrels. There were none fifty years ago.

We made due with what was available. Personally even today I'm quite comfortable with five wadcutters stuffed in my 442 or 36. I know how well I can group in a point shoot situation.

I am not aware of any handgun loads than can disable a threat instantly, please share your findings.

I carried a harder cast wadcutter with enough powder to go 850-900 fps from a 4” barrel. And they worked well in my Model 36 and Model 36-1. Now, I still carry wadcutters but they are 45 caliber and still go 850 fps.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Yep, have shot lots of these...great round works in most of my revolvers.

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SWCA 3749 SWHF 867

Our PD also had a Star reloading machine. I took it home and used it to reload for a time. It had not been in use for awhile, as we started buying our practice rounds instead of making our own.

I went shooting today with my snub nose M49, loaded with 148 BBwc bullets.

The loads went from starters to a full load 38 special, at 17,000 psi.

I needed to use a sand bag off a table with a chair since i had a small case of hand shakes and did not want to shoot my chrony.

Here is a picture of the six loads that I shot to get data for my log books.
With new grips, all POI were low and right, sorry.

Vels went from 591 up to 788 fps.

That data is helpful to me. 3.3gr of Bullseye is my standard load, but I’ve never chronographed them. Thanks!

Back in my much younger days in my old home town, the Sheriff set up a reloading shop in the County jail. I think it had a Star machine. Trusties did the bullet casting and reloading. I remember they used gang molds that cast ten or a dozen bullets at a time. Probably good duty for them. Law and order was a little different back then. I wonder if jails today even have trusties?

Retired 8 years ago, sold the big house, purchased a down-sized home, moved the stuff we intended to keep, got rid of the rest.

Among the keepers in my reloading supplies was a partial box of Speer 148-grain swaged hollow-base wadcutters, probably dating to the late 1970s when I was playing with the possibilities of reversed HBWC loads in .38 Special. Since then I have reviewed my old notebooks and duplicated the results, producing a couple hundred rounds of reversed HBWC ammo for the snub .38 Special revolvers.

These loads are extremely effective in soft target materials at close ranges. The effects must be seen to be believed.

Yes, it is possible to overload this combination with potentially bad results. Staying within the basic envelope of powder charges and pressures results in predictable and safe results.

Another favorite experiment included a mold for gallery loads in .38 caliber, a nominal 50-grain full wadcutter just about long enough for a lube groove and a crimping groove. I cast a bunch using wheel-weight metal averaging 48 grains each, ran through a .358" lubri-sizer, then loaded a stack of 3 each (144 grains total) in .38 Special cases with 2.8 grains Bullseye. Worked just fine, but the bullets did not stabilize very well beyond about 5 yards, started tumbling in flight with erratic and unpredictable results.

I snuck a box of those into the range for a regular qualification shoot, then waited while the range officer scored my target and found about a hundred ragged holes from 48 rounds fired. I did my best straight face innocent act for a while, then showed the guys what I had done.

Lots of fun over the years.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

As mentioned before, .38 Special wadcutter was/is popular in Bullseye competition. Along with the Colt-produced 1911 in .38 Special wadcutter and the S&W 52, there were also Colt 1911 .38 Supers that were converted to . 38 Special mid-range wadcutter. Here's my 1957 Colt Commercial Super/Jim Clark conversion completed in December '57.

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Last I bought for practice was Magtech. Some of it keyholed. Probably ten rounds out of one hundred. I really like Underwood for carry. Very accurate. It’s felt recoil is like +p.

The Remington is on the left. It's length is 1.179".
The Federal is on the right. It's length is 1.156".

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