I wish I had the link to the article. If one of you do please post it.

Recently I read an article about a family in a restaurant and they had their autistic child with them and the child was (as autistic children do) making noise, cutting up or something.

A guy at another table got mouthy saying something about if they couldn't make the child behave HE would do it. I think there was a fight and the family man was injured.

Now I sure don't have a "Batman complex" but I can't see myself standing by and not intervening on behalf of the family with the autistic child.

I'd have to stand between the jerk and the family and hopefully other men seeing this may just stand tall and do the same. THAT would be a good statement right there.

I think there's a quote some famous man in history said - something about "All it takes for evil to abound it for good men to stand by and do nothing". Feel free to correct me if I'm off and post who said this too....

__________________
For God and Country

Here you go. Google works wonders.

Richard Bennett: Miramar man attacked in Olive Garden restaurant - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

Edmund Burke - Wikiquote

I would not have intervened unless I observed the altercation from the beginning.

Depending on the situation, to intervene not knowing EXACTLY what's going on can be deadly and downright foolish.

If you can't controll your child so that it exhibits appropriate public behaviour, don't bring your child into a public place. Autisim is not an excuse. I sympathize with the puncher but can not justify his actions and suspect the punchee did little to calm the situation.

I agree with both of the above posts. Although it certainly would have been better if Blankfield and the parents had been a little smarter, it looks like this whole thing was handled pretty well by everyone else. The parents may be learning a little bit about their responsibilities, Blankfield may be learning a little restraint, and the police and the Olive Garden should do nothing but pat themselves on the back.

I don't think that the average gun-toting citizen would have added anything useful to the situation, and could have easily turned a useful learning experience into a real disaster.

Hmmm.......

A 4 year old autistic kid makes this guy go off the handle enough to punch someone. Why couldnt he just move to another table? I often hear kids crying and making noise in many public areas, they are kids! If this one was being so out of hand complain to a manager and have them take care of it. It is the responsibilty of the business to keep an safe and orderly atmosphere.

Sorry guys, I think this guys actions (the puncher) are unexcusable. Maybe he should learn how to behave in public, he doesnt have autism to blame for his actions.

As for getting involved, not sure I would have personally but I would have let the employees know so they could. I dont think this situation is at all about CCW since it doesnt warrant the use of deadly force. However if some guy went that butt-nutty and physically came at me and my family I would defend myself appropriatly with equal and opposite force. Perhaps with a slapping frenzy :-)

Be safe guys, and be patient.
TD

__________________
More stuff!!!

Unless someone is abusing a child (like a 450-pound slapping a 6-year old off his chair), I stay the hell out of situations with noisy or misbehaving children.
None of my sons were choirboys, nor was I, every single minute of every single day.
If noisy, misbehaving children bother you, all I can say is get a life (or a set of three-year-old twins) (which I don't have).

__________________
and what his trumpet saith

Could it be that that was a place where two a-holes crossed paths? Just because the one guy has an autistic child doesn't make him a saint. I do not know the exact situation. According to the article, it is possible that either of the men, if not both hurled expletives at one another. I'm not trying to judge here; just trying to offer another point of view. Had I been there and witnessed the encounter personally, I find it possible I might could have sided with either of the men. More than likely, I wouldn't have sympathized with either. I expect I would have sat there quietly, as it is the job of the restuarant staff to handle unruly patrons.

Dan Cash i was born physically disabled and i took offense to your statement when a person is born disabled rather it be a physical or mental disability they can not help how there going to behave or act, even with the best care that parents can give the disabled person will still do things that would be considered inappropriate. also i feel that the person who did the punching should be punished to the fullest extent of the law!

It is hard to judge from that link how big the disturbance actually was, but no matter, the fellow was out of line for laying a hand on the guy. If the child was not being properly controlled by his parents, the man should have complained to the management.

Whether to involve yourself in a situation like this always has the two-edged sword principle. On one hand, you would like to stand up against this sort of thing, but in the long run, it is almost invariably more prudent to let the police sort it out, for many reasons. I would only interfere if the situation became life threatening and/or was somehow spreading to involve me directly.

I was once told my a lawyer friend (who takes a dim view of us gun toters) that if he were a gun toter, the only time he would risk interfering in a situation that didn't involve him would be (1) if ordered to do so by a police officer who appeared to be doing his lawful duty, or (2) to stop a deadly attack on a child.

No sooner did he tell me this than that horrific story appeared about the drug user who literally beat and kicked his child to death on a public road, and no one came to the child's assistance. (I believe the assailant was shot and killed by a California sheriff's deputy who arrived at the scene in a helicopter, but too late to save the child.) Stories like these worry me a lot more than people like this nitwit at the Olive Garden.

Nope,sorry but my class and laws call it "SELF" defense and I take that to mean my arse,my family,and a few select friends-I dunna care if you've got the baby Jesus with you the most I'll do is call the cops about the fight.

And if it turns into a killing I'm out the exit door.

I know my view isn't popular but that's how I handle it,I try to help all I can,but when it gets deadly I opt out.

I detest bullies and would've promply shoved my fist down his throat and then told him that his loud mouth bothered me!

There isn't enough liability insurance in the world to cover jumping into the middle of such an altercation, particualrly when you don't know either individual, or even know whether they know each other.

All LE wananbees can fantacize about how they will jump in and make everythng right (whatever that is).
I'll be out of reach calling 911 for the on-duty uniformed force to handle it.
By the way, I don't chase after dangerous drivers to "straighten them out" either!

I've broken up a few fights in my life. Usually I was able to step in and de-escalate the situation without actually getting into the fight. There were only a couple times that I had to detain someone to get them to stop but I've never hit someone nor brandished a weapon to break up a fight. It has nothing to do with making anything right. It's simply stopping a needless act of violence before someone gets badly hurt. I have left the room and called 911 before too. You have to know your limitations. I think someone who can't control his temper due to a noisy child has stability issues and I don't know any father who wouldn't fly off the handle when a stranger threatens his child but you can't take sides while breaking up a fight. That only makes it worse.

__________________
sticks-n-stones&hollowpoints

I've butted in on three occasions when it was probably none of my business. There was very nearly a fourth that I regret to this day that I did not intervene. But people mistreating other people (or animals) really is ALL of our business. Hiring the cops to take care of it for us doesn't make it any less so. Plus, there are times when there is no 911 to call.

3 sides to every story,

There side + His side and then there's the truth.............

Not sure what I would have done.

First point: This all went down at an Olive Garden. On the hierarchy of food chains, Olive Garden is one narrow peg above a Fazoli's. If you're looking for a romantic or quiet dinner out, you're best off to look elsewhere. Who the hell did this guy think he was to appoint himself the "noise police" of the entire restaurant. Guys like that drive me nuts.

Second point: When you have children, you are responsible for the behavior of your children. I don't care how old they are or if they have a disability or not. Take that all into account when deciding where to take your child and when. Only guessing here, but I suspect the child in question was creating a scene for more than just a few moments before jerk #1 felt the overwhelming duty to intervene.

What we likely have here is a situation in which one a-hole (over-sensitive to other people's business) meets another a-hole (under-sensitive to anyone else around him). A fight was almost inevitable.

Definitely not a situation I would bother getting in the middle of, armed or not. But then, I don't eat at olive garden anyhow.

I find your post extremely disturbing to say the least. That child has the right to be there as well as you or anyone else.

Learn patience. Learn compassion and understanding. Learn to deal with it and move on with your life.

You obviously don't have any children. I sincerely hope you don't.

Well, it sounds like the police, and in agreement with the accounts of the other patrons, deduced the right course of action, and arrested the right guy. If the boy was not jumping onto someone else's table, throwing things, or hitting anyone, if the man did not like his table, ask to move. I agree with the stated position that no matter what noise, etc. another customer is making, no one has the right to physically or verbally assault or abuse another like happened. The news account also says "Restaurant staff and fellow customers tried to break up the fight." , so it must have been obvious who the Bad guy was here. My guess is the five other tables that got their dinner free were the ones who helped broke it up.
The good thing is that the nut was not armed when he went off the deep end, and the situation did not get to the point of someone else being forced to intervene with opposing deadly force to protect their family.

Yep. I've read that keeping an autistic child shut up at home and totally avoiding social situations is great for their development.

__________________
- The Federalist #46 -

I would have left the establishment.

I can see so many things going way wrong and involving weapons. They don't pay the real cops enough for the job they do... why am I gonna risk my life or those of my family for a couple of dopes who could have been legally packing themselves?

I'm only going to make two more points on this then I'm bowing out...

Point one is the simple fact that since I got serious about getting,and then acquired,a CCW I've spent some good time on gun forums reading about and getting familiar with CCW laws and whatnot,but I've noticed there's a whole lot of "cop wannabes" or what I call "TJ Hooker,stand ins" and I find it frankly disturbing,you want to put yer nose in other's business I suggest you go and join the local academy....


Second thing is with certain statements here I feel that I should point out that so many today show their greed in so many little ways~children,that "oh-so precious gift",is one of them;if it involves a kid then it's war,they can do ANYTHING and "they have the right" and to that I say BS....

You're little rug monkey has no right if it misbehaves,if it does and you don't want to control it then be ready to have someone crazier then me tell you to put a rag in it and stuff it somewhere.

I'm calm enough to just walk away or ask for another table,I'm sane enough to know that A I'd be better off not getting into a fight with a ner'do well idiot who just won't control their little creation,and B it's more fun to make an anonymous call to 911 and just make a child abuse report on you but you'll soon run across another nut who'll come knock you're block off,and I think when it happens you deserve it,sorry.

I was taught to sit down and shut up,and if I didn't I KNEW I'd get some hell over it later,nowadays children are treated like they can do ANYTHING and you have to put up with it.

And I have no kids,and I don't want any,and I CAN'T have any as I took that option out almost ten years ago-so lay off the "I hope you don't have kids" comments,I dunna want them and I'd rather have a hole in my head then put up with raising one.

Where are the manners while in public in a FAMILY restaurant with your family? The attacker was wrong, and the family man was half wrong in making an argument, but I'm sure he was attempting to defend his family in a crude way it's too bad he couldn't defend himself with his words or hands. The most I would of done was stare and get details needed in finding the attacker, and if he noticed and didn't like my staring I would done something then.

Expecting an autistic child to sit quietly through a meal is like expecting someone with a fork in their arm to not bleed. Expecting a quiet evening at the Basil Pit is just as rediculous. Telling someone you're gonna shut their kid up, handicapped or not is never an adult thing to do. A lot of things in this world make noise. If someone can't handle it then they need to stay home rather than expect the world to change for them.

__________________
sticks-n-stones&hollowpoints

Breaking up fights is not a one-man job. With rare exceptions, all you can do is pick a side. It is not so common that you know enough to do so, and perhaps less common that you are legally entitled to do so. Having a gun is just one more very serious reason to butt out, and this case is a perfect illustration of it.

The average citizen is missing several prerequisites of being a policeman, only starting with knowledge, experience, authority, perceived impartiality and manpower. Each of us should stay in his own league.

One of the disadvantages of concealed carry is you have to not involve yourself in situations that you might otherwise like to. This being one of them. Introducing a gun into a situation like this is NOT a good idea.

Take a life to save a life. Otherwise, stay out of it. If you want to be a superhero, leave the gun at home.

__________________
Centennial Every Day

Ok I read the story again and there is no mention of a weapon being used? Since there was not mention of a weapon (CCW) what does this have to do with Concealed Carry and Self Defense ?

To me Concealed Carry and Self Defense, are dealing with GUNS, not some one jumping on you in a restaurant. To me this should be in another area and not hear but a moderator has not jumped in and moved it , so therefore maybe I'm mistaken.

Also one other note now a days with some people they get attorney's to sue the pants off of you for the littlest things. As big as I am , I tend to distance myself from others physical altercations shall we say.

Back to topic. I believe the op's question boiled down to this: under what circumstances would you (as a ccw holder) intervene into a fight between two strangers in a public place?

In answer to that question, I say "never." If you are carrying a gun, you should be 100% less likely to get involved. Unless the physical safety of me or mine is threatened, I will leave it to the business owner to deal with disturbances on his property. If he is unwilling to do it, and if the situation calls for it, I'll call the police.

I'm not a cop, and have no desire to be one. Wearing a pistol for the protection of oneself and one's family (as is our constitutional right) does not make one a cop any more than carrying a first aid kit makes one a doctor.

Two nimrods beating on each other in an Olive Garden does not justify my intervention.

Nice reply

I have wanted to smack a few noisey kids myself but discretion is often the better part of valor...actually, I want to smack the parents who cant seem to control their kids or better yet dont want to control them because their little angles are prefect in every way....we went to a very nice Itallian Restaraunt the other night for our anniversary...cheapest thing on the menu was 25 bucks...so this Father walks in with his teenager who has no manners and wont take his filthy baseball cap off and his two three year olds who tilt their heads back and slurp spagahatti....then run all over the restaraunt like carpet crawling terrorists...lovley quiet romantic night and 80 bucks for dinner more or less ruined...I wanted to take my 36 out of its ankle rig and use four of the five bullets for Dad and his obnoxious kids.....but alas I behaved and kept my mouth shut....but for ten seconds I wanted to be Tony Soprano and walk over to Mr baseball cap and slap his hat off his stupid head and be Chrissy Moltisante and shoot his punk kids in the foot.....being the good guy sucks at times. And to answer the question...I would at best have used my cell phone, dialed 911 and told them some morons were in the restaraunt acting worse than the autistic kid...get involved...no way other than to call

BINGO!
I find myself way more mild mannered when I am carrying.

As I already stated, I detest bullies and I would've punched the mouthy guy's lights out.
But...that's only if I were NOT armed. If I'm carrying, I know I have to watch what I say and do my best to avoid any and all altercations.
But as you can see, the OP (ArmyCop) never mentioned anything about anyone being armed. So, yes...I would join him in standing between the jerk-wad bully and the family with the autistic child.

~ Didn't any of you see the final episode of Seinfeld where they were arrested for just standing there and watching as the fat guy got robbed?

Remember...the cops can't be everywhere. We are responsible for our own safety. The police are just there to enforce the law.

I guess if the jerk was content to punch dad in the face and leave it at that I would be ok with calling the police and having the criminal justice system run its course. I would have facilitated that, and I have a lot of faith in the process. But if the guy wanted to go further than that he would have had to deal with me. Yes, I would have intervened, and that may have had very serious consequences for all of us.

I guess I should also say that I'm 50, my girls are all grown, my wife is pretty much set for life, and no one is relying on me for much of anything. Mr. Fatass bully-boy might want to consider that there's a lot of us out here that are in position to intervene.

Boy, Missouri has a castle doctrine law that is pretty tight. I do have a CCW but I would never excersize that option unless I felt threatened. I don't care about anyone else but ME!!!!! I have had several levels of training and have asked the same questions always. I would call 911 on my cell if needed.

That's the best post in this entire thread.

Some of you guys don't get the point here. We're not talking about just any child. We're talking about an autistic child. Do you know how difficult it is to deal with an autistic child? It ain't easy.

Do you know how trying and embarrasing it is to sit in public while your autistic child acts up? So what would you do? Stay at home? That's really gonna help. Not!

Some of you don't even know how it feels to want to protect your children because you don't have any. Until you experience it, you shouldn't comment on it.

To be in a public place and have the gall to comment on another persons children is stupid at best. What do you think is going to happen? As soon as you open your mouth, your the bad guy. We don't all think alike. For some cultures it's acceptable to let your children run wild.

To expect people to think like you, act like you, share the same values, and have the same level of common courtesy is not realistic and shows a lack of maturity.

I always think, "I can walk away, but that parent can't." And there's a start for compassion, if not at least relief because you don't have to be in their shoes.

Well, folks...there it is! See it? Right there in black & white.

That's the reason why you can't park your car in the only spot available in the whole parking lot because the jerk who parked next to it is taking up part of the empty space. And it's also the reason why when you come out of the store, there's a shopping cart six inches from your door and only eight feet away from a cart return!
It's also why you might get "cut off" on the roads because someone just decides to pull right in front of you, like you're not even there.

I care about people...whether they're my family, friends or strangers. We're all brothers & sisters.
God is in All of us.... How you treat your neighbor is how you treat God.

~ I realize this should be posted in the Lounge, but the OP posted it here so....

Well, actually, it's probably time to lock this thread, having drifted so far off topic...