Gun Retention Knives

[YkcorCal]

So what knife or knives do you carry as gun retention aids if any and preferred carry locations "if" you care to share?

[Rpg]

What is a “gun retention aid” knife?

Sorry to be thick about this 😀

[gregintenn]

Originally Posted by Rpg

What is a “gun retention aid” knife?

Sorry to be thick about this 😀

Glad to see it wasn't just me. I use a knife for cutting; not retention. That's where a holster comes in handy.

[crstrode]

Originally Posted by Rpg

What is a “gun retention aid” knife?

Sorry to be thick about this 😀

The OP is from california. A knife is needed to cut through the red tape.

[lihpster]

I keep it right next to my prisoner transfer Altoids.

[Grayfox]

Is that one of those pistol bayonets that was popular a few years ago?

[ContinentalOp]

Ka-Bar TDI Investigator, horizontally at about 12:30 for a left-hand draw, I can also access it with my right hand in a reverse grip.

I have been thinking about getting a ring-knife, like the Benchmade mini-SOCP dagger.

[ContinentalOp]

Originally Posted by Rpg

What is a “gun retention aid” knife?

Sorry to be thick about this 😀

A "GET OFF ME!!!" knife.

[lihpster]

Originally Posted by ContinentalOp

A "GET OFF ME!!!" knife.

So, a knife then.

[ContinentalOp]

Originally Posted by lihpster

So, a knife then.

Pretty much, but for the specific purpose of dealing with someone trying to get your gun, or someone who's too close for you to draw your gun by creating space, and usually a small fixed-blade knife. The original TDI knife was specifically designed as a weapon-retention tool. But any knife can fill that role. A Nashville police officer used one succesfully a few years ago when he was attacked at close quarters in a public restroom.

[CB3]

My “Get off me knife” if a bad guy is grappling for my gun so I can’t use it or on me so I can’t get my gun out.

Cold Steel Safe Keeper II double edge push dagger, a type of fixed blade. Accessible to either hand from its belt mounted Kydex sheath.

With a tactical vest with gear I mount a Spartan ring knife centered just above the lower part of my sternum. Accessible to either hand, pretty much hidden by mag pouches. Lower profile handle.

43ED2758-AFD1-41BF-8604-DD2EE088CD91.jpeg" target="_blank">43ED2758-AFD1-41BF-8604-DD2EE088CD91.jpeg

[BloodyThumb]

LOL... But I am not going to point any additional fun at the OP.

I do. On duty, a small inexpensive fixed blade hidden on the front of my vest positioned so that it can be drawn quickly reverse grip / edge up as my off hand comes over either toward the grabber or toward the grabbers hand / arm.

Off duty a very dependable and trusted OTF, carried IWB at about 10 o'clock just forward of my off hand.

[Muss Muggins]

Took 35 years in the business for me to see the phrase “gun retention knife.” I like to use my hands to hang on to my pistol. If I can get one free, somebody’s getting an elbow to the ear . . .

[Execpro]

Carried an original TDI knife for many years on left side at 10 o’clock when wearing an outside the belt handgun at 3 o’clock (in uniform).
It would come in handy if your right hand was on your weapon or on the hand of someone who had their hand on your weapon trying to take it away.
Have on occasion worn it in the same place concealed when going places were guns not permitted.

P.S. it's also useful as a rescue tool for cutting seat belts or smashing car side windows.

[rosewood]

My gun is a life/money retention gun.

[Absalom]

A quickly accessible knife is always useful. But promoting one to the official “gun retention knife” seems a bit over the top.

Knives have pretty much zero stopping power. In a potentially life-or-death struggle for your gun, taking one hand out of the fight in order to try hacking away at your attacker with a small knife should likely not be a major component of your defensive tactics. Having him die from bleeding out 20 minutes later may do you no good at all.

[YkcorCal]

Originally Posted by Rpg

What is a “gun retention aid” knife?

Sorry to be thick about this 😀

The retention knife opposite the carry side gives you a weapon to draw with the opposite hand if you can't draw your gun. A knife is a knife and very different than a gun up close. it's edged and you can swipe and cut with it.

Duty weapon retention

[YkcorCal]

Originally Posted by Absalom

A quickly accessible knife is always useful. But promoting one to the official “gun retention knife” seems a bit over the top.

Knives have pretty much zero stopping power. In a potentially life-or-death struggle for your gun, taking one hand out of the fight in order to try hacking away at your attacker with a small knife should likely not be a major component of your defensive tactics. Having him die from bleeding out 20 minutes later may do you no good at all.

I guess you have never seen a skilled knife fighter's work then.

YouTube

YouTube

[ContinentalOp]

Originally Posted by Absalom

A quickly accessible knife is always useful. But promoting one to the official “gun retention knife” seems a bit over the top.

Knives have pretty much zero stopping power. In a potentially life-or-death struggle for your gun, taking one hand out of the fight in order to try hacking away at your attacker with a small knife should likely not be a major component of your defensive tactics. Having him die from bleeding out 20 minutes later may do you no good at all.

Then you don't understand the purpose. It's not meant to stop the attacker in his tracks. It's meant to get them off you and create enough space so you can draw your gun. You may want to check out some of Craig Douglas' work.

[ContinentalOp]

Originally Posted by YkcorCal

I guess you have never seen a skilled knife fighter's work then.

While a good point, it again misses the purpose. They're designed to be simple to use with minimal training. For example, with the TDI, you basically draw and punch. If you have more advanced skills, then it can help, but it's not necessary.

[crstrode]

Originally Posted by YkcorCal

The retention knife opposite the carry side gives you a weapon to draw with the opposite hand if you can't draw your gun. A knife is a knife and very different than a gun up close. it's edged and you can swipe and cut with it.

Duty weapon retention

I much prefer a gun retention gun.

AKA New York reload.
AKA backup snubby.

[YkcorCal]

Originally Posted by crstrode

I much prefer a gun retention gun.

AKA New York reload.
AKA backup snubby.

To each their own; sometimes other skills come in handy. Not everything requires a gun as much as I love them because you just might not have time to draw that second gun which I whole heartily believe in. The more tools you have the more likely you are to survive in my humble opinion. Just like having grappling skills.

When all else fails have multiple bask-up plans in place because there is always bigger, faster, badder people out there and you better have many plans in place when what you thought would work fails because the best laid plans will fail sooner or latter.

[jeffrefrig]

Originally Posted by CB3

My “Get off me knife” if a bad guy is grappling for my gun so I can’t use it or on me so I can’t get my gun out.

Cold Steel Safe Keeper II double edge push dagger, a type of fixed blade. Accessible to either hand from its belt mounted Kydex sheath.

With a tactical vest with gear I mount a Spartan ring knife centered just above the lower part of my sternum. Accessible to either hand, pretty much hidden by mag pouches. Lower profile handle.

Attachment 504688

That thumbnail pic just scares the living heck out of me just looking at it!

[YkcorCal]

You will never see an experienced knife fighter's blade but feel it first after you are cut perhaps in your Femoral artery or Carotid artery. I was taught to cut the insides of the wrists to the bone rendering the hand useless for grasping a weapon until it is surgically repaired. No slashing aimlessly but targeted cutting to render safe the assailant from further ability to assault without killing. Personally, I found it an ethical skill set.

[ContinentalOp]

Originally Posted by crstrode

I much prefer a gun retention gun.

AKA New York reload.
AKA backup snubby.

And that's a good option, too. But not everybody carries a BUG that would be accessible to one's support hand in the middle of a struggle for one's gun, and it's generally going to be easier to carry a knife than a gun with that kind of accessibility. A knife may also be quicker to access. I've done a little experimenting, and I can draw my TDI knife and poke a target in front of me than I can draw and fire my gun from a retention position. And the knife is a lot faster than drawing a second gun pocket-holstered in my left pocket.

Obviously, a weapon retention knife is not for everybody. I wouldn't add it to a list of essential self defense tools. Most people will get by without one. But that doesn't mean it's not a valid tool. It would be nice if we could discuss such things without the inevitable condescension and mockery.

[Oracle]

If I were to encounter a hostile person intent upon taking my gun I would use my gun to retain my gun. I can't imagine any scenario where I would opt for a knife over the gun as a first line of defense.

I have an EDC knife, an ANZA 2" fixed blade carried in a sheath OWB. I guess it could be used if a body excretion were to strike the ventilation device.

Don

[YkcorCal]

Originally Posted by Oracle

If I were to encounter a hostile person intent upon taking my gun I would use my gun to retain my gun. I can't imagine any scenario where I would opt for a knife over the gun as a first line of defense.

I have an EDC knife, an ANZA 2" fixed blade carried in a sheath OWB. I guess it could be used if a body excretion were to strike the ventilation device.

Don

So, if your assailant is at under three feet and starts grappling with you using a mixed martial art beating the snot out of you as he is both bigger, stronger, and faster than you. Keeping you from getting to that second gun you can't imagine any scenario where you would opt for a knife you could reach over the gun you can't get to as a first line of defense?

[crstrode]

Originally Posted by ContinentalOp

It would be nice if we could discuss such things without the inevitable condescension and mockery.

Harrummpf!

I do believe my preferences for a gun retention gun has been met with condescension and mockery!

[YkcorCal]

Well. I'm in California where fixed blades are "the devils children" according to "progressive Democrat's" ruling the state but when I lived in more free states even Pennsylvania this was my favorite legal carry knife.


Spyderco Ronin 2 Knife, SP-FB09GP2

YouTube

[JJEH]

Used to have it right behind the magazine carrier.



Now I'm working on a better solution for non-uniformed people, or rather when not wearing a duty belt

[ContinentalOp]

Originally Posted by crstrode

Harrummpf!

I do believe my preferences for a gun retention gun has been met with condescension and mockery!

If you're serious, then you didn't read my post, as I said it was a good idea. And my comment was not aimed at you as you had a very reasonable response, IMO.

[YkcorCal]

Originally Posted by crstrode

Harrummpf!

I do believe my preferences for a gun retention gun has been met with condescension and mockery!

Honest discussion is not condescension or mockery but concern for you!

[Rustyt1953]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Took 35 years <snip> for me to see the phrase “gun retention knife.”

Add me to your list. In my almost 68 years I, too, had never heard this term before.

I need to get out more.

[YkcorCal]

Originally Posted by Rustyt1953

Add me to your list. In my almost 68 years I, too, had never heard this term before.

I need to get out more.

I'm 71.

Did you read the Police 1 article on the subject?

Police1 - Duty weapon retention

[Rustyt1953]

Originally Posted by YkcorCal

Did you read the Police 1 article on the subject?

No, I did not.

[YkcorCal]

Originally Posted by Rustyt1953

No, I did not.

Interesting. Rocky1949

[YkcorCal]

Excerpted from:Police 1- Duty weapon retention

"If you are in law enforcement for any length of time, you are going to have someone try to take your primary duty weapon. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. The real question is, what are you going to do about it?"

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by YkcorCal

I'm 71.

Did you read the Police 1 article on the subject?

Police1 - Duty weapon retention

This “article” is actually an illustration why I display a somewhat snippish attitude toward this newly invented “gun retention knife” concept.

Having an easily accessible knife on you is never wrong (as long as it is legal). It can serve all kinds of purposes including as a back-up weapon in situations where other back-up options may not be available or feasible. Even if you’re not a knife fighter. No argument there.

But gun retention, though remotely one of the possible scenarios, isn’t a particularly credible primary purpose. So if the Police 1 guy, who (surprise, surprise) wants to sell you police knives, discovers you need a knife for gun retention, I get cynical ...

[YkcorCal]

Originally Posted by Absalom

This “article” is actually an illustration why I display a somewhat snippish attitude toward this newly invented “gun retention knife” concept.

Having an easily accessible knife on you is never wrong (as long as it is legal). It can serve all kinds of purposes including as a back-up weapon in situations where other back-up options may not be available or feasible. Even if you’re not a knife fighter. No argument there.

But gun retention, though remotely one of the possible scenarios, isn’t a particularly credible primary purpose. So if the Police 1 guy, who (surprise, surprise) wants to sell you police knives, discovers you need a knife for gun retention, I get cynical ...

I totally agree with you! Surprised? Be it officers or civilians carrying concealed they all need professional training and need to follow the laws to the letter!!! A half-trained officer or a half-trained civilian carrying concealled is a danger to themselves and others. Look I am not the enemy here; I want people trained and trained properly be it in hand to hand, knife, handgun, and tactics. Even an officer if he is not properly trained in using a knife can do more harm to himself and his department than not carrying one at all yet it can be his best toll if he if trained. Choosing the right knife can aid cuffing, gun retention and save his life but finding the right teachers is key.

My former brother-in-law was a Houston Cop, my first wife was a Sheriff's Deputy in Texas, I helped establish the first Drug Suppression Unit on Okinawa for the US Army and my present wife was the first woman to command a full wing as a Lieutenant in the Colorado Men's Prison System in Buena Vista, CO. There are other cousins and members of my family in Law Enforcement, etc. I have taken post graduate work in "Criminal Justice"; so I am not a stranger to the field or the training.

[YkcorCal]

Backup / Weapon retention knives for CCW
Kyle Defoor gets up close and personal with combatives.

YouTube

[YkcorCal]

DEFENDING YOUR FIREARM, YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT

Defending your Firearm, Your Life Depends on It – Tactical Response

[CB3]

I think the OP asked a reasonable question that has led to some productive discussion.

Carrying a defensive knife is an option. There are many potential uses and many ways to use it. Just like you can't always use a gun, you can't always use a knife. However, having the option with some training broadens your response capabilities to bad situations.

I also have never heard of a "Gun Retention Knife", but I knew to what the OP was referring. Such a knife would not be carried for that one purpose, but rather that is one use of the knife.

Targeted slashing and stabbing is taught in the most basic of knife courses, and going after approximately five critical areas effectively can definitely stop an aggressor quickly. The same is true with shooting: hit the thigh, one hand, shoot through the flesh of the forearm, etc., and your magic gun won't be so magic. Effective hits are what count. Same with the knife.

As to being able to retain a gun under any condition, that is a pipe dream quickly evaporated by force-on-force training. However, have you ever fought an opponent armed with a weapon in each hand? Like a knife and a gun? That is a formidable opponent. You want it to be you.

Getting to a backup or hideout gun is usually very difficult in a struggle unless it is in front at your waist. I believe that very few CCW's carry a spare gun, and those who do think an ankle holster, small of the back or in a pocket are the places for it. In a grappling fight, which most fights devolve into quickly, that backup gun will not likely be accessible.

Such a gun with inside grappling is fairly easily defeated by grabbing the cylinder to stop rotation if a revolver, or even deflecting the shot. Touching the gun itself is easy. A knife? Not so easy to defeat. It is a far better grappling weapon in close quarters.

The opponent has to deal with it or withdraw. If he tries to deal with it, he is in range. He cannot deal with the blade. He must deal with your hand or arm, and that gives you the inside attack. You are not seeking to kill him by bleeding him to death or with shock; you will disable him by slashing tendons or puncturing arteries, if you know where to strike. All you need is a pause in the action to be able to safely withdraw. For instance, a slash across the eyes or eyebrows will blind him with blood very quickly.

In most defensive situations you will start at a deficit, since the attacker chooses the place and timing. If you are immediately in CQB, and you have telegraphed you have a gun by trying unsuccessfully to draw it before he traps it and goes for it, your off hand is not likely to have strength across your body to deal with what's going on beside you. Use your off hand to draw a fixed blade knife and go to work. You will likely prevail.

No gun is a talisman, and neither is a knife. It's the combatant, not the tool.

[YkcorCal]

Thanks CB3, I had to teach that lesson to an Army National Guard Captain because a friend on mine who was a local police chief of a very small department shot and killed a wife beater when he tried to ambush my friend when my friend showed up to take the abused wife to a shelter. All the other regular officers were tied up so he went to pick her up before the abuser showed back up. Neither my friend nor the abused wife knew the abuser was hiding outside waiting. The abuser attacked with a large hunting knife as my friend was getting the wife into his car. He barely was able to stop the guy and the abuser died on scene.

I had been transferred to a MASH unit after my Airborne Infantry Army National Guard unit had been disbanded. My new Captain kept running my friend down for not wounding the knife attacker but instead killing him until I could not take it any more and I told the Captain, he did not know what he was talking about and I could prove it. He challenged me to prove it in front of everyone so I used a practice knife and had him holster "his sidearm". I started from over 21 feet away and told him in advance to draw from his holster as soon as he saw me begin to move. Now back then I was still 6'5" and 230lbs so I was not a sprinter by any means but before he knew what was happening I used my left hand to trap his gun hand on top on his holstered gun and my practice knife was under his chin as I said and "I would drive this into your brain if it were real." His eyes were as big as saucers looking around at everyone grinning at him but he never mentioned my friend again. I had proven my point.

I prefer guns but I was trained also how to use a knife by some of the best. I am an old overweight fart now but underestimate your adversary at your peril.

[The Big D]

I dealt with ‘bigger, badder, faster’ people regularly in 30.5 years of fighting crime but never once considered a ‘gun retention knife.’

Never had my gun taken, either.

With all due respect, I think OP is waaaaaay overthinking stuff.

Be safe.

Originally Posted by YkcorCal

...because there is always bigger, faster, badder people out there and you better have many plans in place when what you thought would work fails because the best laid plans will fail sooner or latter.

[Ranger514]

Old School here. I was trained (and trained others) in firearm retention tactics that covered the gamut, no matter how brutal, in maintaining control over your firearm. Standard reaction was a double handed clasp on your holstered handgun (dominant hand pressing up from below/ non-dominant pressing down,) while forcefully moving into you assailant in a lowered crouch, violently twisting left/right at the waist to cause physical distraction while loosening the attacker's grip. Additional tactics included head butting, forearm/hammer fist blows to attacker's radial/ulnar pressure points, throat, eye gouging, groin kneeing, shin raking, biting...anything was fair game when it came to firearm retention, knowing full well the loss of your firearm could mean the loss of your life, or that of others. I have no issue with the defensive use of knives under extreme circumstances; however, realize that in carrying a knife, you have added another weapon that could possibly be taken from you and used against you in a lethal encounter. Whatever your choice in primary and backup defense...practice for the worst case scenario.

[YkcorCal]

Originally Posted by Ranger514

Old School here. I was trained (and trained others) in firearm retention tactics that covered the gamut, no matter how brutal, in maintaining control over your firearm. Standard reaction was a double handed clasp on your holstered handgun (dominant hand pressing up from below/ non-dominant pressing down,) while forcefully moving into you assailant in a lowered crouch, violently twisting left/right at the waist to cause physical distraction while loosening the attacker's grip. Additional tactics included head butting, forearm/hammer fist blows to attacker's radial/ulnar pressure points, throat, eye gouging, groin kneeing, shin raking, biting...anything was fair game when it came to firearm retention, knowing full well the loss of your firearm could mean the loss of your life, or that of others. I have no issue with the defensive use of knives under extreme circumstances; however, realize that in carrying a knife, you have added another weapon that could possibly be taken from you and used against you in a lethal encounter. Whatever your choice in primary and backup defense...practice for the worst case scenario.

I totally agree, as I say if you are going to carry a knife you have to get professionally trained and keep training to stay proficient just as one does with open hand combative techniques, and firearms!

For those that do not take knives seriously I pray you never meet a well trained knife fighter in a life and death up close and personal situation.

To me it is just like trained and untrained use of the choke hold.

YouTube

YouTube

[shell627]

The police academy I went to the self defense instructor.Told is to think about having one or more knives handy in case you need to cut someone off your weapon.

[wetdog1911]

Originally Posted by crstrode

I much prefer a gun retention gun.

AKA New York reload.
AKA backup snubby.

Makes perfect sense to me, way more than a gun retention knife, knowing my skills with each. Some with a gun, zero with a knife.

Rob

[YkcorCal]

We go with what we know and how we are trained. After 50 years of training since I was 20 in martial arts, in the military and out with combative arts, knives, and transitioning to firearms I'll stick to what I know best as I am far to old to change. Best of luck with what you choose.

Rocky

[sipowicz]

Originally Posted by ContinentalOp

Ka-Bar TDI Investigator, horizontally at about 12:30 for a left-hand draw, I can also access it with my right hand in a reverse grip.

I have been thinking about getting a ring-knife, like the Benchmade mini-SOCP dagger.

My TDI sits at 1130 for left hand draw. The sheath fits perfectly behind my double mag pouch on my duty belt. Handle is barely noticeable.