I was never into very small guns. Other then my S&W 642 and 640 pre lock 38's , I only own and carry medium and full size pistols and revolvers. (on and off duty)

I noticed there have been a lot of new very small handguns on the market mostly in .380.

I decided to give one of the a try and picked up a NIB Ruger LCP 380.

In Your opinion , what is the role of those little pistols?

Do any of You carry them as Your main self defense weapon? And why?

I think the LCP makes a great back up gun. It is small enough and light enough to fit in a large handcuff case or an off hand pocket. 380 is not a great cartridge, but if someone is attempting to take your duty weapon, drawing it with the off hand and firing an entire magazine into their face at point blank range will probably discourage them considerably. I keep mine loaded with Full Metal jacket ammo. I am not sure that 380 has enough power to expand and pentetrate so I just settle for the penetration and let shot placement do the rest. Even if your primary backup is a J frame, the LCP can be a great 2nd backup or hideout gun. In the old days, it was not uncommon for guys to carry a derringer or small auto in a boot in case of an "Onion Field" situation. I have a galco holster that is made for the cargo pocket of my uniform pants that holds the LCP and an extra magazine. In case of a primary weapon malfunction, loss or damage, it could provide cover fire to break contact or retreat to the unit for a long gun.

Off duty, it is useful in the times when there is temptation to not carry at all. It will fit in the watch pocket of some of my jeans. In the summer time when I just don't want to wear enough to conceal anything more potent, it is usually possible to carry the LCP and at least one extra magazine. Sometimes I even carry it as a backup off duty when carrying a J frame and loose ammo. Then it becomes my New York (or Chicago) reload. If carrying two backups on duty or one backup off duty seems paranoid, the question is "is it paranoid enough". When the news is full of Fort Hood shooting, Navy Yard shooting, mall terrorist takeovers, bank robberies, convienience store robberys and car jackings, assistant DA murders, DA and wife murders, I think paranoid is the new normal. If you are not paranoid, you need re-training.

I have a Ruger LCP and think it's a great little gun...for what it was designed for. It was made to be an up-close-and personal belly gun, pure and simple...not a target pistol.

That being said, however, they are surprisingly accurate given their size. When I lived in northern California, we had to qualify with each of the firearms we would be using for concealed carry in order to get our permit. The LCP was one of the guns I wanted to carry, so I had to shoot at a bowling-pin-sized target at 15 yards. I placed 23 out of 25 shots inside the target. Not bad for a belly gun.

I carry it loaded with Hornady 90-grain Critical Defense ammunition. I've done some penetration tests with this stuff and it's not bad at all.

Granted, this might not be your first choice when it comes to personal protection, but there are times when that's all I can carry. I usually either carry it in my coat or vest pocket, or if I use a holster, I carry it in a Mitch Rosen rig.

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Pack light and cinch tight.

I agree with TexMex, great backup gun, so-so primary gun. Mule Packer also had a good point, it's better than nothing if it's all you can carry.

.380 makes your ammo choice more important as well, you have less margin of error. I no longer carry .380's size the advent of the Mini-9's/Shield, but when I did, I went the first two rounds Corbon DPX the FMJ every other round.

Now that's a great line.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

In my view the .380 can serve several roles. Back-up to a larger caliber, a third gun (for those who carry three), or primary carry depending on individual routines. I have a Bodyguard 380 that frequently goes with me when my attire requires something that is "pocketable" without printing, or when dress won't support the weight of a glock23. I don't see it as inadequate for edc, and I'm quite confident that 6-7rounds almost ANYWHERE you hit a perp at point-blank range is going to AT LEAST discourage them.

I carry a BG 380 on work days as my primary. I work in an office building in a low-crime area. The 380 is easy to conceal and comfortable to wear IWB at my desk all day. The rest of the time I carry a Shield 9mm.

Critical Defense is my chosen carry load as well, but I have a magazine of Winchester PDX1 and another filled with Speer Gold Dot as well.

I carry a Sig P238 as a back up with Corbon Pow-R-Ball ammo.
The ammo does quite well in .380, better then Critical Defense in .380 IMHO.

Had the S&W Shield been around at the time I purchased my Sig. I would have bought it in 9mm instead.

Pocket carry an LCP in a DeSantis Nemesis. Hornady CD.

Role: Primary

Why: Convenience of carry, of course. It simply disappears in my front pocket. It ain't but .8'' wide. Holstered and loaded with 7rds, it weighs in at 14oz.
I drop it in my front pocket when I get dressed and that's where it stays.

Ibought the LCP for her, the weight and size were very important. I added the tigger laser. It has been stated this is no target/ long distance gun, but for dark parking lots along with the laser it is just a layer of insurance that she feels good about. I think in many cases the sight of a laser on the perp body may be the only ammo you need to change the situation.
Good Luck

I've tried more than once and have no use for anything 380.

There are guns in more effective calibers that are not much bigger. And there are too many limitations when carrying a mouse gun.

Bad sights. Poor DA trigger. Limited effective distance. And more. These guns are meant for extreme close quarters. Nothing more. But considering that you MAY need to protect someone else, a mouse gun is not the gun to have.

A J frame should be the minimum.

Just my opinion though.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I bought a LCP a few years back and eventually traded it for a BG380 which I had for about two years. I went that route because I wanted a small, thin gun that would be easy to conceal. The price was also easy on my wallet.

I generally carried the .380 to church, weddings, or anywhere I didn't want a larger gun. Or to an occasion where I was dressed in say.. khakis and a polo. Easy to conceal IWB or in pocket. I'd also take it kayaking because it was comfortable to carry when seated. I would carry it as a primary.

As time went on I had some concerns about the caliber, and then reading about issues with the BG's firing pin, I decided to leave behind the .380. I recently traded it in and got a Sig Sauer P938. Very close in size but with the advantage of 9mm.

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- The Federalist #46 -

I take it your concerns had to do with something you read, rather than a failure of the caliber in an actual self defense situation? Don't understand the logic of trading a gun because of reading about issues with it either, as there is yet to be a gun manufactured that one can't read about SOME issue with-including Sig.
When used for its intended purpose (close quarter self-defense) there is no valid reason to question its adequacy. Opinions may differ, but in the lack of any evidence it remains an opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImD0105NcXE

Lack of evidence? The 9MM is and always will be better than any 380. You know that.

The truth is this, there is simply no reason to SETTLE for a 380 when guns exist in 9MM that are bigger by fractions of an inch!!

This has been hashed out too many times. Read the threads. People carry the 380 NOT because of it's power. But because of the size of the gun. They know that it's an inadequate caliber but it's better than nothing.

People vehemently argue for the 380 knowing it's severe limitations.

To each their, but I will never understand the mouse gun mentality. But if your happy, I don't have to understand it.

That being said, IF I had to carry a 380 it would be a CZ 83. At least I would have 15 rounds to dispense the bad guy!

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

In some parts of the county it is hot and stays hot to warm most of the year. When normal wear is a pair of shorts and a T-shirt, or with some body builds, it is hard to carry even a compact pistol without it printing. It's either a pocket pistol or nothing. The various ultra small pocket pistols are better than nothing, and the whole idea of CC for civilians is you are supposed to try and avoid trouble, and use of your carry piece is last ditch, and likely at very close range. But, then again I may be wrong.

A guy by the name of Greg Ellifritz spent a long time gathering information on self defense uses with handguns. Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute.

What Ellifritz found is there isn't a lot of difference in outcome regardless of caliber, .380ACP through 45ACP. Shoot the perp once or twice, and they generally stop what they are doing. The results among the different calibers are eerily similar. As Ellifritz sums up - Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

Larger calibers can inflict more damage, no doubt about it. But does that necessarily translate to significantly different outcomes in self defense situations? Greg's findings didn't indicate so.

You make a valid point for a smaller gun. It gets warm here too. Not like Texas or other states, but it's still plenty hot to us here. It sometimes reaches 90 here. To us that's HOT!

I don't expect people to be like me or do what I do, but if I can conceal a Glock 19 while wearing shorts and a loose button up shirt I'm sure others can too.

I have also pocket carried a Kahr CM9 and a J frame 38. And I've also carried a Springfield XDS on the belt while wearing shorts and loose shirt. It was easy.

The last 380 I owned was a couple months ago. I got rid of it. My next gun will be a Glock 26 when I can find one. Or maybe a S&W M&P compact.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Makes a lot of sense, and I appreciate his consideration of variables like the preponderance of ball ammo in the 9mm figures and rates of extremity hits. Real food for thought.

And I'll stick with my dinosaur .38 Special +P 158gr. LSWCHP.

I've sometimes wondered if the muzzle- and barrel-cylinder-gap flash and blast from a short revolver would be an additional encouragement for a bad guy to change his mind. Just speculation, of course, but they are noisy, pyrotechnic little beasts, especially with +P or Magnum ammo.

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Oh well, what the hell.

The advent of the growing number of newer, smaller .380's has brought some attention back to this diminutive cartridge.

Up until the time I bought the previous version of the LCP (before the change in sights & "trigger"), the only .380 I'd owned and used for off-duty was a chunky Beretta M84, and that was over 25 years ago.

As the demonstrated reliability of the .380's has seemed to improve with some of the newer little .380's, and the ammunition has benefited from some attention by the major American ammo companies, I started paying more attention to the little BG380's & LCP's coming through the qual ranges.

Then, a longtime friend & firearms instructor ('Nam vet & state peace officer who typically always carried a pair of handguns around with him) sheepishly told me he'd bought a LCP. Told me he'd been shooting the daylights out of it for several months, and that a lot of his peers have been buying & using the LCP's.

He let me borrow it and I was impressed by how much easier it was to pocket carry than my several J-frames. I went down to the local cop shop and bought one.

I was more than a little surprised by how inherently accurate and reliable the little LCP was with some different JHP loads. Yes, the sights were about as hard to quickly see and use as the older narrow J-frame irons, but being a long time J-frame shooter I was able to use them to get pretty quick and accurate hits running the LCP through our qual course-of-fire and some fast-paced drills. (I later added some bright neon yellow nail polish to the front post and center of the rear notch, making it much easier to pick them up for sighted fire.)

The little .380 is still a viable defensive cartridge within reason. I don't try to make it into something it's not, and I feel the heavier bullets available in the .38 S&W Spl do offer some advantages to be carefully considered within situational context.

I went to a couple of outside training classes last year, one for the field LEOKA class (LE killed & assaulted) and another for street tactics & ofc safety. Both were lecture venues and discussed a lot of shooting situations. The importance of how little .38's & .380's had been successfully used, repeatedly, by on & off-duty cops to save themselves was interesting. Impressive, even.

Now, I know a couple of instructors with very large hands who simply can't handle and shoot the littlest .380's well. Not a good match for them.

I've watched other guys have a hard time trying to shoot the little guns as accurately, let alone as quickly, as their full-size duty weapons. (Like a lot of younger cops who didn't learn their handgun skills on DA revolvers can often have a hard time learning to shoot a 5-shot snub accurately and effectively.) The little guns require more work on the part of the shooter, and they may not work for everyone.

Now, I tend to carry my LCP when my risk assessment of my planned activities, and areas of those activities, don't make me feel I should reach for one of my larger pistols or revolvers. When it's still possible and appropriate to be armed, and my clothing choices permit it, but I don't feel it's likely to be necessary. No, I don't have a crystal ball, but after more than 30 years of having carried with a badge & ID card, I've acquired a little experience in considering potential risks I might face.

Other times I'll usually grab one of my several J-frames, or even one of my larger 9's, .40's or .45's. Just depends.

I've even carried the LCP as a secondary retirement weapon when away from home under some conditions (traveling, long rides on the motorcycle through backroads, etc). Only because it's so small, light and convenient.

FWIW, I didn't pick the S&W Bodyguard .380 because it was just enough larger than the LCP for me to notice, and I didn't particularly want the added integral laser.

I know the whole "comforting, not comfortable" saying, and I used to carry off-duty weapons including issued 4" K & L-frames, Security/Service/Speed-Sixes, N-frames, a Redhawk and a variety of newer full-size, compact & subcompact pistols throughout my career. I even carried the large revolvers IWB.

I know it can be done, and I've done it enough years. I just don't particularly feel like doing it anymore. The smallest guns are the handiest and more practical for my retirement needs ... although I'll still pull one of my OWB belt holsters, paddles, etc from time to time.

Situational context and some prudent risk assessment.

I also practice shooting the smaller guns a fair amount, since I'm still keeping my hands in things as a firearms instructor & armorer. The little LCP doesn't see much distance practice out beyond 20-25 yds, with the bulk of it at 3-11+ yds, but the J's see practice out to 40-50 yds (long time revolver shooter, and someone who enjoys testing the "basis" at demanding distances ).

Shooting is a perishable skill.

The little guns can be harder for many folks to shoot than larger guns. Practice.

I think Ruger and S&W have a couple of winners on their hands with the LCP & BG380. Handy little examples of the newer generation of .380's.

Oh yeah, of the 3 JHP's I successfully used for function-testing with my LCP (Rem BJHP, Win T-Series & Speer GDHP), for the time being I have the best access to the Win & Speer loads, so those are what I usually carry. I mix in the Win FMJFP practice loads, but still use the JHP's for practice.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

+1 Thank you.

Even though I have no use for the caliber nor do I care for it, most people that buy a small 380 mouse gun complain about the recoil. Thus, they don't shoot it often. I would venture to say that many won't admit that.

How many times have you been at a gun store and the salesman says "You won't want to shoot it much. Just make sure it works and practice once in a while."

My point is that most who carry such guns don't practice regularly. They don't carry a reload. And they can't hit what they shoot at. Even at five yards it's difficult for new shooters to hit the target accurately. A lowly caliber such as the 380 combined with a platform that is not user friendly is a recipe for disaster. And then you have the people that think their going to save the world with their mouse gun.

Up until mouse guns became popular the J frame was king.

I understand and hope that many of you can shoot the little guns accurately REPEATEDLY. But it has been my experience that most cannot. Mouse guns are NOT for beginners.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I carry the Ruger LCP as a primary weapon because I no longer go to Detroit or the near suburbs.
On the rare occasion that I do go to Detroit or another bad area I will pack my Glock 23. Now that I am off the job there is very little chance of me getting into a shooting where I live.

I had a nice long reply typed out, but instead I'm just saying that with all due respect, I don't care how you feel about my reasons for trading guns. How about 'cause I wanted to?

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- The Federalist #46 -

I slip my LCP into my pocket from time to time. It's such a great option for light carry.

I had an LCP before and traded it for a Bodyguard .380. I liked the safety option and laser since my eyes aren't what they once were. As luck would have it I had one with a dud firing pin which broke. A buddy bought it off me and I wen back to the LCP.

Of course I'd rather a more significant caliber. Obviously at close range you'll make contact, but I wrestle with whether I should carry FMJs for penetration or JHPs for expansion. With more significant calibers I don't have that worry.

I'd like a smaller 9mm, one for the pockets, but it's not in the budget right now.

"Most" folks don't practice much at all, period. Here in Hamilton County there's about 15k people with permits. If they only came to a range once a month the public ranges would have lines a mile long.

As far as ability to hit what you're aiming at in a self defense situation... notice the accuracy numbers in Ellifritz's report. You've mentioned J frames a couple times, so let's compare the .38spcl column to the .380ACP

There's no subcompact category, but I think it's fair to guess that subcompacts are likely a large part of the .380ACP numbers.

.380ACP
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

38 Special
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55%

Similar numbers in every category listed. We don't know how many shots might have missed entirely, but we're not talking about high-cap guns here. And those extra reloads you say aren't carried much for the .380 (I agree) don't seem to be affecting the failure to incapacitate numbers compared to the .38spcl.

I'm not trying to say that Ellifritz's numbers are the Bible on self defense shootings. There's tons of unknowns and endless what-ifs that we could throw at it. But the numbers are pretty darn consistent for .380ACP - 45ACP and don't tend to substantiate a lot of negative assumptions and conclusions that some have about the .380 as it relates to how successful/unsuccessful folks are defending themselves.

All that said, I agree with you that subcompacts are not the easiest to shoot, and the .380 is not the most powerful. Those who cannot shoot a subcompact to their satisfaction or suffer CAD (Caliber Anxiety Disorder) should move along to something that better suits them both physically and emotionally.

Has anyone tried the Diamondback .380 or 9mm? It seems to have a relatively simple barrel/slide assembly based on the Glock. I also like the double travel bars and steel trigger setup.

I have an LCP and I carry it mostly in the summer when I'm in shorts and t-shirt. I carry it because it can drop in my pocket and I will carry it. I have numerous other handguns but they are larger and more difficult to carry. The LCP will be there. I find I can hit anything within 10 yards within a 4" or less circle. I live in a very low crime area and have gone 72 years without being able to carry anything so now it is just a little peace of mind. It is for an emergency, like a 1st aid kit in my car.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I am of the same opinion. I carry a brace of 38 Special J frame(s) loaded w/Buffalo Bore® Std Pressure 158gr LSWCHCGC bullets. I have much more faith in 158gr 38 Special bullets than ANY .380ACP BULLET.

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

The first concealed carry gun that I bought just for that purpose ( pocket carry ) was the LCP. I loved how it fit in my pocket, liked how it fit in my hand, hated the way it stung my trigger finger when I fired it. It was extremely accurate but I couldn't find a way to fire it that didn't slap my trigger finger. After much trial and error, my 638 fits me much better. Very little difference in weight, better trigger and no one has EVER guessed that round lump in my pocket for a gun....