Some time ago I read an article about point shooting that made a lot of sense to me. I thought I would begin a conversation about this technique and how you train.

When I go to the range, I set the target about 10 to 15 feet away. I am assuming that my need for my weapon (M&P 40c) is to neutralize (kill) an imminent threat. At this moment, I am likely to be in full panic mode.

I do use my gun sights just to reassure myself that the weapon is working properly. Then, I switch to my own personal point shooting method. I keep both eyes open and focus on the target (threat). Then, I raise up my gun and grasp it with both hands. As I extend out my arms, I switch focus to my front sight only and center it on the now fuzzy black blob (the threat) and fire.

Each time I practice this approach, I hit the target quickly and accurately. Not a perfect bullseye. But, I put a few rounds in to the target that will, in my opinion, kill the threat.

Could I point shoot from my hip? I don't know as I have never practiced this. Could I point shoot using the "index finger" approach? Never practice this either. I am comfortable raising the gun to focus on the front sight.

How do you practice for a high threat situation?

Marcus

The definition of point shooting means you are not using your sights in any way. I train using the "Thumbs Forward" grip. Google it. The thumbs of the two-handed grip point at the intended target, and the visual focus is on the point of intended impact...ie center mass.

Used the point shooting method recently at LEOSA qualification w/my J frame and scored 85%. There's not much time for carefully aligning your sights and pressing the trigger slowly (two shots in three seconds from the holster @ 5 yds.). My front sight is painted white (appliance touch-up) and I get a flash sight picture and pull the trigger. The targets are time controlled by computer so you just record a miss if the shot does not go off.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

+1 on the previous comments.

My method with my 642; I put out a B-27 target. I put the target out about 5 yards. Point shoot, until you get a consistent group, then push it out, a few yards at a time, all the way to 50'.

I don't seem to be able to find a pic, but I normally can keep them all in the 8 ring, with most in the 9 ring or better, out to 50'. Realistically, I can only hit the head area with a 642 at 50' when I'm AIMING, but I can hit somewhere in the 8 ring, point shooting at 50'....go figure. There's a 'COM' lesson in there somewhere...

Edit: I should add: doing this exercise, I'll try it with different revolvers & 9mm's with varying barrel lengths up to 4" (revolvers) and 5"+/- 9mm on different days. Guess what; the point shooting accuracy is not appreciably different between any of them and my 642?!?

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But then, what do I know?

It seems that one form of practice is seldom, if ever, mentioned. Close in, I mean bad breath close. One form I practice is to stand directly in front of the target and push back with my left hand. Like pretending someone walked up to you and tried to grab your gun. As I do so I draw (with my right hand as I'm right handed) and fire. I'm sure there are many more ways to practice but this is one I find most people have never even considered. It can give a whole new perspective to shooting.

The flash sight picture and putting the focused front sight on the target are basically the same as used in speed related shooting sports when the ranges are that close. Often you see the outline of the rear of the slide on the target and the trigger is pressed. It is still a form of sighted shooting but with a much more coarse & hurried sight picture. It adapts well to situations where the light conditions don't allow a clear sight picture.

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JOSHUA 1:9

Whenever this subject comes up, I recommend that the OP get a copy of "SHOOTING TO LIVE" (Fairbairn and Sykes). These two were Involved in several hundred close quarters shootings. It starts at the beginning and gives a full training regimen on point shooting. We'll worth the trouble.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Now that I can no longer see the sights and target, point shooting is the only thing that keeps me going.

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Back to back World War Champs.

Point shooting can work for most people at any reasonable pistol range with adequate practice. Way back when, when my department was looking at it, I once fired a passing qualification score (barely, but it was passing) with a brown paper bag over my head using only point shooting.

The Laserlyte Pistol Cartridge is an awesome trainer.
It fits in the chamber and fires a point when the hit by the firing pin.

I am fairly new to handguns (1 year) and have fired hundreds of "rounds" using this tool over the last year, and am still on the same set of batteries.

It is perfect for what you are wanting to do.

Note I am in no way affiliated with these guys, just think it is an overlooked tool. I have one for my 40 and 380.

LaserLyte ? Trainer Pistol Cartridge

Attached Images

LT-PistolTrainer-Cartidge-Group-1_large.jpg (26.2 KB, 834 views)

We shot lots of rounds point only. Didn't start to aim till we got back several yards. The powers a be always said if it ever hit the fan you would most likely not have time to aim. Would barely have time to clear your holster.

Back in the early 80's our firearms instructor encouraged what he called the "Gregg" method. We held our sidearm (revolvers back then) about mid chest and fired at ranges from 1 to 7 yards. We did not use sights at all.

We also drilled at 1 and 3 yards with drawing the revolver, basically rotating it 90 degrees holding it snugg against the rib cage shooting as we moved backwards.

Point shooting is always "sightless" and the sidearm held close into the body. At least, that is how it has always been presented to me.

I hope you find this helpful.

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I am a sheep dog!
1601 (ret)

This is a subject I have always found interesting.After starting to shoot at age 6 I was always hunting,but had never been able to hit aerial targets with a rifle.In my 20's in 1959 Argosy featured an article on "Lucky" McDaniels and Instinct Shooting.He claimed he could teach anyone in a couple of hours.My friend and I called BS,but as I still had an old Daisey we vowed to try.Two days later after 1 hour we were regularly hitting drink cans or smaller with ease.We then changed to a 22 and it took a half hour to adjust but same result.All using no sight picture.Believe it or not in another 30 minutes I was doing the same with a Win 92 38/40.It must be a Zen thing,because you just look at the target and "wish" the bullet to the target.I only tried a few times with a Colt Match Target Woodsman but did pretty good.I hit a crow flying and a Bob White running.As long as I did it I could keep it up,but years of low finances,books and hard work I lost the touch.If it were not for my bursitis I would try again.Maybe I can find a kid with a good arm who would help for a few lessons,if I can find 22's.

Use a B34 target at 3 to 5 yards. Shoot one hand from the hip and empty the revolver as fast as I can pull the trigger. Larry

Jeff Cooper called it a "flash sight picture," a very rapid rough alignment of the sights. Of course, the closer you are, there are other things you can use for a point of reference to verify proper alignment of the pistol with the target, such as the whole slide, the whole pistol, etc., and the closer you are, the easier it is to hit with an imprecise "sight" picture. It is even possible to do as the "father of point shooting," Rex Applegate did, which was to hold the gun below the eyes so it was still possible to verify alignment by "peripheral vision" while focusing on the target.

The rule is the closer you are, the less precise a sight picture need be to achieve hits, and the further away the target, the more precise the sight picture needs to be to assure hits.

Remember, there are MANY documented cases of misses when "hip shooting" without use of the sights at ranges as close as 3 or 4 FEET (not yards). While this seems impossible, it has been documented often enough that it should be a concern.

Use your sights when you can, and if you cannot get a precise sight picture use SOME METHOD to verify alignment. Sighting in some manner GREATLY increases the probability of hits. Don't forget that other factors will play into what method of alignment you use, such as close quarters, corners, etc., where you will want to keep the pistol close to your body so it does not become the focal point in a wrestling match.

The two DVDs that I have found to be most helpful for my point shooting practice are:

"Point Shooting" - Paladin Crash Course Series

"Shooting for Keeps - Point Shooting for CQC" with Col. Rex Applegate

Both are offered by Paladin Press, and contain excellent footage that is very simple to learn and incorporate into your training regime. For my point shooting practice, I use a .22 Model 317 which simulates my other CCW .38 J-frames, but is more cost effective to shoot. It also allows for more efficient weak side training as there is no recoil.

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I'm with the banned ...

Another book worth reading is Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner." Point shooting, especially from the hip requires a lot of practice in order to get hits, and I don't consider it practical at any distance you can also bring up your sights for a clear picture or even a flash picture. Throwing the technique into your tool box for potential hostile encounters at up close and personal distances is a good thing; but there are few natural shooters who can employ the techniques consistently at distances beyond a yard away from the target.

Combat Focus Shooting by Rob Pincus is a good read on this subject.

After picking up one of the above posted laser "bullets" out of the bargin section I noticed I could "hit" reasonably well by just point shooting. I decided to shoot my next idpa match without looking at my sights. While I did ok, it was obvious that I could have done better with my sights. Given the group of guys that I normally shoot with and our normal time accuracy breakdown the truth is it's not really faster. Add to this that I hit three non threats and it obvious that your (I am at least) better off getting a sight picture. As mentioned above the flash sight picture is not truely point shooting but it is my preference when quick hits count.

I'm not trying to throw stones at you Mushki, but "noticing" your relatively good at it and "trying" it at a match is not the basis for a fair judgement. After you've practiced it a half-a-million times, see what you think then.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

For the OP:

GunUp the Magazine - Thumbs Forward Grip Promo

I would recommend taking a Thumbs Forward shooting course, but this gives you the basics.

Thanks everyone for your comments. I guess I used the wrong terminology. I am indeed practicing "flash sight picture" shooting.

I just don't see how I would ever have the time, especially in a high threat situation, to raise up my weapon and sight it on the target. Flash sight picture targeting seems quick and lethal. I have never practiced hip or point shooting. Right now, however, I am focused on training myself for flash sight picture.

Marcus

The thumbs forward grip seems all the rage now. I find mostly that those who use it have little or no experience with revolvers.

Although I am in for as much fun as the next guy, urging someone to shoot a revolver with the support thumb forward can be bad, especially if you value your support hand thumb. This is not the kind of prank you want to play on some poor unsuspecting new shooter.

Thus, if I see someone starting to use that unfortunate grip on a revolver, I will tend to say something in a nice way. I do the same thing if I see a new pistol shooter who wraps the support hand thumb over the top of the web of the strong hand thumb. This was popular on TV shows of the 60s with revolver-wielding "private eyes," but is a good way to remove some flesh when the slide reciprocates at high speed, cutting the thumb of the support hand in the process.

Personally, I find it uncomfortable (the support hand wrist, as shown in the article, is cocked down), in my case it is weaker (the unlocked support hand wrist is weaker than bones in line locked), and the grip tends to cause unwanted operation of the pistol's operating controls for me and for others I see who attempt it.

I freely acknowledge that I may be "too old to be taught new tricks," but what works for me is the grip taught by Jeff Cooper - he taught one for pistols, and a slight variation for revolvers.

For me, thumbs forward is uncomfortable, and even if it were not, I would not use it as it does not transfer well to revolvers. That is one of many reasons I do not favor the "shooting to reset" method all the rage with Glock owners (and M&P owners apparently, as well), as short stroking can get you into trouble if you do it with a revolver - thus the short-stroking, or shooting to reset method does not transfer well to revolvers. I prefer, in shooting all types of handguns, to just let the trigger go all the way forward.

Absolutely. The most recen modern text which includes all of this thought is Grant Cunningham's.... Fly Fishing Flies - DEFENSIVE REVOLVER FUNDAMENTALS: PROTECTING YOUR LIFE WITH THE ALL-AMERICAN FIREARM

IMHO, this weakens the grip #1, and does nothing to add in indexing the gun. After, when you really 'lock out' your thumbs, they curve to your left!

I keep my grip the same whether I'm shooting a 1911, a Glock, or a revolver. Thumbnails over thumbnails (how Jerry Miculek holds a revolver.) It works for me.

Thumbs forward is uncomfortable for me, too. Not just inconvenient or unpracticed, but truly uncomfortable. Like an uncomfortable chair.

Those who think the thumbs forward grip is a new fad and/or weakens the grip on the handgun should go talk to Ernest Langdon, Dave Sevigny,and every single IDPA and USPSA national champion of the last decade about it.

You probably also should school guys who've actually used firearms in combat like Travis Healy

I'm sure they could use shooting tips from both of you.

Travis Haley on Handgun Grip - YouTube

I try different things and find what works for me. Jerry Miculek describes his grip--fast forward to 1:55 in the video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gEHNZFTfSD8

I haven't read all the replies so far so this may be repetitive.

Point shooting is situational. It should be practiced yes. If a threat is perceived, movement is first and foremost important in addition to a smooth draw.

Ten yards is a long way. Most people that don't practice can't hit their target effectively while moving and point shooting let alone sighted shooting. Start close in and work your way out.

Think of the situations where you may be required to point shoot and practice. Up close. Far. One hand. Both hands.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I think the effectiveness of point shooting is indelibly linked to the ergonomics of a given firearm and how well the shooter's hand fits the gun. The M&P is very good at this as is the Sig P220 and Ruger Vaquero for me, but individual results may vary. The Glock isn't as friendly to me nor are the double action revolvers. I have been in silly positions with the gun hidden in a briefcase on my knees or peeking out of a low port and pulled off some incredibly fast shots at 7 yds with these guns. Sometimes the action happens so fast that you literally just pivot and fire three rounds at a moving target without lining up the sights. Probably a good skill to have, but it's going to take the five shots to a reload pretty quick as it seems to be a burst technique.

Discussion of grip is a bit moot since you are going to point shoot with whatever grip you have on the gun at the time in a combat/stressful situation. Otherwise you would be lining up your sights as you correct the grip. Right? My guess is the first shot goes off in whatever purchase and the subsequent shots go in an improved grip if you are a shooter or a diminished grip if you are not.

Think that a target is too close to miss by point shooting? Go to a Cowboy Action match and see it live. People miss two foot squares all the time at 5 yds. Going too fast and not paying enough attention to the fundamentals will burn you when it counts.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

I believe those that were commenting on the thumbs forward hold were referencing revolvers. Do all those fast and fancy shooters occaisionly blow off a thumb? Cause if you keep putting your thumb out there, you will.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Revolvers and semi autos demand two slightly different grips. Healy mentioned that in the video that I posted.

I use the same grip Jerry uses on wheelguns. The strong hand thumb is down, the support hand thumb is over the other but still pointing fwd.

A thumb fwd grip can be used on a revolver also. Correct placement of the support hand naturally leaves the support hand thumb well back of the cylinder gap unless you have abnormally long digits.

You can also use the rear of the handgun to index a close shot. Take up your standard two hand grip and look about 3 inches over the sights. Tip the gun slightly to the right and note what that looks like. Then tip to the left, up, and down. You will get a different "sight picture" each time. When drawing, look about 3 inches over the sights and use the correct center alignment. With a little practice a 7 yard hit should become easy. You still have to use the basic principles of handgun shooting.

Training and recurrent practice is often the answer to functioning well and effectively under stress, without going into "full panic" mode (which, according to at least one definition, seems to suggest a very strong feeling of anxiety or fear, which makes you act without thinking).

Remember, our hardwired instinctual responses to fearful situations - and even unexpected loud noises - include freeze, flight or fight, but training can help re-wire those 'natural' responses. This can help us react in ways that might offer a better chance at survival than relying on simple "gut instinct" in the midst of an unexpected emergency of a life-threatening nature.

This is why it's often observed that good training can help 'inoculate' someone against the adverse effects of stress.

I've been trained in the use of "close combat/hip/point" shooting techniques for use at appropriate distances, and have been required to demonstrate & teach it to others as a LE firearms instructor.

A good instructor can really help with this, as many folks are badly surprised by how easily they can miss their intended targets when trying to perform hip/point shooting ... even when just standing comfortably and relaxed at a range, meaning not under actual stress.

After all, how many 'natural' athletes don't benefit from having a coach, at least at some point?

Then, there's the "perishable" part of any aspect of our shooting skills to remember. Especially a new one.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

The point shooting I learned was in the early '70's w/my service gun, a 4" Model 15. At about the 3 yard point we drew and pushed the gun toward the center of the target, with both eyes open and focused on the target. The trigger pull began when the gun came up to waist level and the shot broke with both arms fully extended. It worked pretty well but was abandoned after a short while for reasons I'm not aware of.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

It still works as well as it did back then.

My 4" 64-5 excels at it. My 3" 65 slightly less so. My new CZ P-07 turns out to be an awesome point shooting pistol both due to how it fits my grip (with the large backstrap) and its front weight bias.

Point shooting is rolled into almost every one of my range sessions.

I have small hands, and I can't do it with a K/L frame and definitely not a J. But I was trained on a 1911A1 and the revolvers didn't happen until later. (My first revolver was a Ruger SecuritySix, and I could never point shoot with it). The whole thumb forward thing didn't come along until long after this old dog had learned his tricks. (And in all truth, I would probably try and correct someone if I saw them doing it)

There's only so many ways to do something and then someone re-invents it. Point shooting should be done one handed from waist level.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Alpha Sierra, go ahead and try this for yourself. Extend out your index finger, and have your wife or child get a nice, full-fisted hold of it, with the thumb curled down. Make mental note of how much effort you exert to pull your finger free from their grasp. Then, have them repeat it with their thumb extended, NOT adding to the grip. Then it will become self-evident.

As to to Mr. Healy and the like, perhaps that's how THEY were taught, and have not bothered to explore other options. I wouldn't want to have one grip for semis and one for revolvers, following a KISS approach.

As to training, there's quite a bit of difference between what special military operators do, and CAN do, because of the volume of their training. A lot of base, autonomic responses can be mitigated because of such intense and frequent training. Plus, the fact that they are going in hot, with a team, among other things, all serves to quash the flight-flight responses that we mere mortals will tend to revert to when the SHTF.

+1 Exactly what is shown on the vintage footage from the Applegate DVD.

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I'm with the banned ...

The bottom line is distance, point of impact and accuracy. Practice makes the difference.

This photo was taken at the VA State Championship IDPA match in June of this year.

The course of fire was 5 targets,(4 behind barrels) all had to be engaged while retreating with 2 shots each. You were required to draw your weapon from concealment. It was not required to shoot the course strong hand only, but I chose to just for sake of speed.

While not from the hip, using a mid chest extended aiming point, I ran the course in 13.01 seconds. With a reload and 0 points down.

That is a Model 681 btw that took me to 1st place in my division that day.

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Take your time..quickly.

I'm sorry, but I don't think so.

The thumbs forward grip is universally used by both successful practical pistol competitors and by competent firearm trainers. It is the state of the art in controlling a handgun to maximize the rate of fire on a target. Period. End of story.

You can continue to live in the past with obsolete techniques if you like. I've moved on.

I totally understand why you did it because I've found myself doing the exact same thing when the opportunity showed itself. When point shooting is done correctly at appropriate distances it is a wicked fast technique.

And just think, in another 10 or 20 years, some kid will come along with the "Next Newest Fad" for trick shooting and there you'll be, stuck in the old days.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Don't worry about me. The day that someone can show me a more effective grip than what I use now, I will adopt it without any sentimentality or wistful thinking about the "good ole days".

Muscle memory, 1000's of hours of practice and 100's of 1000's of rounds fired make changing things kind of tough. But you'll learn that. Do what works for you. (But I believe you'll find what I did.)

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

I'm older and wear bifocals. If I were to carry my old Browning High Power, I would definitely plan on using a one-handed high point draw and fire. It's a very natural technique for me. Looks a lot like that old FBI video from the fifties. The pistol is in view as it comes up, so even if your eyes are focused on the target, you are still pointing the slide. Works with my Glock 17L as well. Like I said, it's very natural for ME. Your mileage may vary.

I just started shooting last week. Thanks for the advice.......

Thanks, but I'll use whatever grip proves to allow me to make hits under duress if necessary. It may not be what the experts use, or it may, but it will be what works for me.

But then I carry a revolver too, so obviously I haven't moved on. Or rather, I moved on to pistols and then moved back.

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Oh well, what the hell.

There used to be a guy by the name of "Lucky Mc Daniel". Havent read of him in years. May still have his book. He was a instinctive, or "point shooter" and was a army instructor etc. Its claimed he could knock a BB out of the air with a air rifle!
Lucky McDaniel - Ask.com Encyclopedia
My dad was good with any type gun he picked up and he would take me to the village dump and work with me when I was young. Several times I seen dad knock birds out of the air with his open sighted winchester model 61.
I was good too for a short period of time in those days, certainly not now. For awhile I was good with a old ruger single six. A high percentage of trys, I could throw a bottle in the air and draw and hit it. With the winchester model 61 I got to where I often could knock a thrown medicine bottle or similar. I am a big believer in "instinct" shooting but like anything else it takes a lot of practice. I am a big believer in shooting whats comfortable to YOU, not what some instructor thinks works for everyone else. This assumes you arent a brand new shooter but are somewhat seasoned. I expect flack for my view on that one.

Sounds like we have a mixture of older shooters using techniques they learned in their day vs. those who have adopted more recent ones (both thumbs forward started in the early 80's BTW).

As for point shooting, it requires a lot of reps. Until you develop the muscle memory of knowing where your muzzle is when you present, at best you're guessing.

I have never been good at true hip shooting (I.e. Cowboy or 007 style). The best I've done is bent elbow presentations at 1.5-3 yds. Although both techniques are within the definition of 'point shooting', in my circles, it is defined as one or two handed shooting at full extension without the use of sights...generally two handed.

We used it on 12x16" steel generally out to 7-10 yds, in both handgun/subgun. I say "used" because with the higher attrition rate on some of our teams, the high learning curve/perishability factor, and increase in red-dot optics, it fell out of favor.

With that said, in our current scenario based training, it is interesting how often guys get shot in the hands when reacting to threats. We record every run and it's evident that in many of the engagements the shooter is not looking down their sights...they're looking at the threat...or more specifically the weapon in there hands. We like most teach to look at hands.

So although my guys are more highly trained than most, to a certain extent, as long as a shooter has basic shooting fundamentals covered, along with consistency and reps, the concept of your gun going where your eyes go is definitely true....'Eyes, muzzle, threat'.

It's interesting how muscle memory and your eyes work together.