Would you shoot an individual waving a knife at you

We had a well taught class on this when I was working. From 21 feet away every deputy in the class was stabbed by a deputy wielding a rubber knife. It happened before we could react, un-holster, and fire. We knew it was coming, imagine if we did not. Do not underestimate a knife. That is why I carry one as a backup.

Deadly Force

As in all deadly force situations, the police and the courts will determine if the attacker had the MEANS, ABILITY AND MANIFESTED INTENT to do you harm. This is basic use-of-force training in every police academy.

Now, if the knife wielder is wheel-chair-bound and you could have just stepped away, chances are you're going to hang. But, if he was armed with a throwing knife, was preparing to throw it, and you're were fortunate enough that his actions were picked up by a store surveillance/security camera, you just might walk free.

To me anyone waving a knife around 20 feet from someone he is threatening is asking to be shot. I am sure that waving the knife at that range is felony assault in most places. Unless there was a solid reason not to distance myself I would, but, while drawing and positioning my weapon. Any pursuit other than shuffle steps is going to result in me firing. I would rather take my chances with a lawyer and a jury than a knife and a ER room.

While I believe some of what has been going on is the result of some bad history and a few bad cops, I don't any much sympathy for the majority of the "victims". Waving weapons around fighting and disobeying commands from the police isn't going to work out well for you even if you are right.

Haven't seen "the video" or know the facts...........

but if someone is waving a knife blade and threatening me....... within 10yds......... my first thought is maybe my concealed carry gun ...... should be in my hand not it's holster.......................

If the threat continues....... the perpetrator has been warned that you are armed..... and he has brought a knife to a gun fight........ and you are in a better place to respond to an attack.

If he/she runs......let them....... then call 911 and report the "attack"....and the fact that the "attacker" ran when you drew your legally carried concealed weapon.


Footnote: today many folding knifes are assisted opening with one hand and can be deployed in a split second........less than the time it takes to cover 10 ft much less 21.

isn't going to work out well for you even if you are right.
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Steelslaver, as much as I wish you were wrong, I can't argue with the above. The way things are today, anyone who is forced to defend themselves can plan on spending LOTS of time with assorted attorneys. Both the D.A.'s staff, your criminal defense attorney, and then your civil-defense attorney.

If the threat already has shown the knife, the question isn't "would I?"... Question is: "can I ?".
Badge 130 post is on the money.
A baton is a good tool.Open hand Training is essential. An unfit, untrained officer is forced to rely solely on his firearm. That's a bad thing.


In my situation, if anyone is threatening one of my "charges", I will have excellent legal representation after the fact.

It's not just fear of death

Use-of-force laws don't just allow deadly force in situations where your life is at risk, but also to prevent serious physical injuries including disfigurement, broken bones or protracted impairment of health.

Slashing attacks, most often with a box cutter, are often not fatal but you may use deadly force to prevent your attacker from transforming you into a scarred character from a horror movie.

Menace me with a syringe which, you claim holds a deadly virus and I will shoot you if I don't have a readily available and safe means of retreat.

Wagonmaster said:

I have been wondering how far I would go if someone was waving a knife at me and not knowing how far he would go. It seems Chicago seems to think a policeman should stand and take it since they are inditing him for murder. Course I guess it also depends on which individual was shot too.

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As you may have noticed from national events, there is a lot more to this question than your simple proposition . . .

Badge130's video is very enlightening. Feel we need more people educated about this threat. Thanks for sharing the video.

I could be convinced the shooting was justified. The first shot or two. Not shots 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16.

Outdoors: If you're moving TOWARDS me, I tell you to stop and you don't, I take three steps backward, then shoot. Ohio requires ATTEMPTED retreat before the use of deadly force when not in home or vehicle.

Indoors: If you're in my home, with anything reasonably useful as a weapon (knife, gun, club, etc.), you get shot, no warning or discussion of any kind.

Regardless of location, I stop shooting after the threat is down and no longer a threat. I DON'T keep shooting until the magazine is empty and after a reload.

federali said:

Use-of-force laws don't just allow deadly force in situations where your life is at risk, but also to prevent serious physical injuries including disfigurement, broken bones or protracted impairment of health.

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Deadly force is deadly force, and at least in Ohio, it's lawful (with certain caveats) to respond to ANY form of deadly force with ANY form of deadly force.

• Attack me with a tire tool and I shoot you.
• Attack me with a knife and I shoot you.
• Attack me with a gun and I shoot you.

Don't like that? Don't ATTACK me.

In Ohio, if outside of home or vehicle, I must ATTEMPT to retreat IF (and ONLY if) I can do so in PERFECT SAFETY. I don't have to turn my back on my assailant and try to outrun him. I merely need to make a REASONABLE effort to disengage. If he thwarts that effort, the responsibility is HIS.

Likewise, I must stop the use of deadly force when my assailant is no longer a threat. Once he's on the ground and incapacitated, I may NOT continue to shoot him, much less reload and continue to shoot him.

old bear said:

Steelslaver, as much as I wish you were wrong, I can't argue with the above. The way things are today, anyone who is forced to defend themselves can plan on spending LOTS of time with assorted attorneys. Both the D.A.'s staff, your criminal defense attorney, and then your civil-defense attorney.

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Boys,

12 years ago I had a real life knife in my face situation. I won't bore you with the details but miscreant approached with knife in hand, screaming, cursing, etc. There were two of them. I pulled my 342 with laser sight and screamed "Stop". He did not. As I retreated I remember how dead solid still the red laser sight between his nipples was. Not like when shootiing paper. I continued to back up. He said, "that laser doesn't scare me." I replied "Where that hole is fixin to be will." "Drop the knife, one more step and I will kill you." He believed me. Threw the knife down, they both ran away. My buddy had called 911. The Leo's, three of them, all agreed I should have shot. They caught them in about 20 minutes. I said I wanted to press charges. They called Assistant DA and they wouldn't take the charges. It was a "He said, they said" and wouldn't stand up in court I was told. This bird was within 10 feet of me.

Now, had I shot I would not have been able to spend as much time on the forum. I would be working 3 jobs to pay off legal representation.

It worked out well. No body dead and I still have some of my retirement left. As Fred (Oldbear) said in above quote.

I was pressing the trigger, one more step would have been all allowed by this writer.

Be careful out there, right ain't always the best possible alternative.

Indeed.

Spot on.

Old TexMex said:

...
A baton is a good tool.Open hand Training is essential. An unfit, untrained officer is forced to rely solely on his firearm. That's a bad thing. (emphasis added)...

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Be safe.

KNIFE

IMO if you survive you did the right thing. Convincing/surviving the jury trial is an entirely other topic. The "facts" can mean virtually nothing in court, it's what can be proven & how the jury's opinion swayed. ANY past history, guilty or not guilty, "sealed records" etc will play a part & likely not be in your favor. Public opinion, media coverage, zillion man marches etc will put pressure on prosecuters/judges to get a decision that will de escalate & appease the masses. In other words, don't forget the lube.

cmort666 said:

Deadly force is deadly force, and at least in Ohio, it's lawful (with certain caveats) to respond to ANY form of deadly force with ANY form of deadly force.

• Attack me with a tire tool and I shoot you.
• Attack me with a knife and I shoot you.
• Attack me with a gun and I shoot you.

Don't like that? Don't ATTACK me.

In Ohio, if outside of home or vehicle, I must ATTEMPT to retreat IF (and ONLY if) I can do so in PERFECT SAFETY. I don't have to turn my back on my assailant and try to outrun him. I merely need to make a REASONABLE effort to disengage. If he thwarts that effort, the responsibility is HIS.

Likewise, I must stop the use of deadly force when my assailant is no longer a threat. Once he's on the ground and incapacitated, I may NOT continue to shoot him, much less reload and continue to shoot him.

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Pretty much sums it up.

Any weapon (knife, blunt instrument, firearm), if they show an intent (verbally or non-verbally) that they are going to assault you with it, and they are within that weapon's effective range, they are a lethal threat. LEO's are trained to "fire until the threat is gone." That could be one shot OR it could be a mag (cylinder) full and like cmort666 said once they are INCAPACITATED, STOP shooting. I would recommend getting cover, holstering your weapon and call the police yourself, staying on line with the dispatcher until the officers' arrive.

I would do what I needed to do to protect me and my family.

The Swedish Police had to take a lot of flack for killing perps
so they invited a reporter to a test.
(The woman in the video)

Sorry for the Swedish, but at the end of the video she admits
that she was shocked at how fast everything happend.

The link goes to Expressen which is a Swedish newspaper.
Efter d

We discussed the "21 foot rule" not too long ago. It is not a "rule" but a guideline. Cops and gun carriers have to make a very quick decision whether or not to shoot. And that decision will be scrutinized by all.

I've heard people say "just shoot them in the leg" or "ignore him and the problem will go away". These people don't know what their talking about but it these very people that could end up sitting on a jury waiting to put you away for life.

Quality practice and training will help greatly. But some people can think and act quickly under stress and some people can't. But no matter who you are or what you do, if you carry a gun you better be prepared CORRECTLY.

Another video to illustrate the importance of training.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHYRBNc9r8[/ame]

Well..my two cents on this subject are sort of at the end of the list here.

But, what I was trained as a policeman was one thing..We COULD shoot a fleeing felon, provided we knew that he had committed a felony. A lunge by a offender with a weapon of any kind would be justification, no matter the distance. However, any good policeman worth his salt, knows how to think fast on his feet, and can differentiate what is and what isn't an immediate threat, and what measure can be taken, be it taking refuge, using a night stick, tazer or by use of lethal means, his gun, to stop the threat of immediate harm to himself or others.

The references WA101 stated in his post #9 above are spot on. Here-in-lies the difference between a active policeman, and we who are now considered civilians...with our CCW to be used in "Self Defense", of our own persons, our loved ones, or another. As could be the case if one should stumble upon a mass shooting as has occurred in various places in the recent past.

I as being a "Retired" LEO, I too am saddened at the news of a uniformed one, using their gun, more so than other means....But too on this same note, what we hear about the police shootings of today, are really not too much different that they were years back...Except now, one news media reports it, and 20 others chime in, so it sounds like there are more police shootings than there really are.

Years back when I was in uniform, I found out I could shoot to kill, if need be. That mindset is still with me. But I also know, if I can avoid a direct confrontation I will by all dispatch.

One more item to consider, IF, and I say IF here, you were a tower guard at a prison, and you saw a prison break and one or more starting to run across a field, is shooting them justifiable? They are un-armed, running away.


WuzzFuzz

I might add to my above....Since I am no longer in my 30's..40's or even 50's, I could not stand up to a *** beating by some one or several at once, even though they all appear to be un-armed. All it would take is for me to be knocked down, hit my head, or stomped and I'd probably be done for. For that, I will defend myself with lethal means, (To prevent abuse of the elderly, which is a felony)

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