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Micro red dots on subcompacts.
- Thread starter delcrossv
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I admit to having those things on ARs. On pistols, I don't see the need for it. Okay, fine, 25 yards, maybe longer, etc. But in a point-and-shoot-save-your-life-gunfight I think it will just be in the way.
The American Rifleman story on the Hellcat from Springfield specifically noted that this was either "all the rage" or the "newest thing" or some such similar language. Well, besides needing a purpose built holster to accommodate that extra piece of machinery on top of your handgun, and maybe it doesn't make the gun harder to conceal or less comfortable to carry, I can't say for sure, it just seems to me that it answers a question that nobody asked.
If it gets Millenials to carry handguns, if it gets Gen Xers or whomever to LIKE shooting guns, well, then I am all for it. For them.
The American Rifleman story on the Hellcat from Springfield specifically noted that this was either "all the rage" or the "newest thing" or some such similar language. Well, besides needing a purpose built holster to accommodate that extra piece of machinery on top of your handgun, and maybe it doesn't make the gun harder to conceal or less comfortable to carry, I can't say for sure, it just seems to me that it answers a question that nobody asked.
If it gets Millenials to carry handguns, if it gets Gen Xers or whomever to LIKE shooting guns, well, then I am all for it. For them.
HardToHandle
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My everyday carry has been a G26 with a Shield RMS for almost five years. I had a G19 and a RMR06 before that. There is a reason why Uncle Sugar specified RDS mounting on the new US service pistol... it is the standard equipment for a fighting pistol today.
If by a new thing, RDSes on pistols date to Ronald Reagan. Mini RDSes on carry guns started about the same time as Bill Clinton. They aren’t new.
Guess what is smaller than my Model 12 snub but carries twice as many rounds?
Want to shoot 10-75 yards with ease? Put a RDS on it.
Want to be able to use a light in low light situations? Put a RDS on it.
If by a new thing, RDSes on pistols date to Ronald Reagan. Mini RDSes on carry guns started about the same time as Bill Clinton. They aren’t new.
Guess what is smaller than my Model 12 snub but carries twice as many rounds?
Want to shoot 10-75 yards with ease? Put a RDS on it.
Want to be able to use a light in low light situations? Put a RDS on it.
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On a Full Sized, fighting pistol I agree an optic makes sense. Personally Im not a fan of them....but maybe they will grow on me....
As for a defensive handgun as the OP mentioned.....or on subcompact guns (which I always assume are defensive not offensive)......I personally dont see a point myself..
I concede the point that some people......young and old have bad eyes....and the optic helps them shoot better and I am 100% for things that help people shoot better.
Just my opinion, I’ve shot a few but am not convinced they are any help at self defense distance. Bad eyes? Maybe.
If a person can’t point their gun, a decent gun and hit their target effectively at ten yards or less without an optic, then they need more practice. An optic won’t be much help.
If a person can’t point their gun, a decent gun and hit their target effectively at ten yards or less without an optic, then they need more practice. An optic won’t be much help.
Nobody regards a pistol as a military "fighting" implement. It is, at best, a defensive tool, something you give to truck drivers and APC crews that don't have the space for a carbine. At worst, it's a badge of rank.
It was specified because they specified that the new pistol have everything under the sun stuck on it, just in case five guys stationed in rural Turkstandistan needed it.
Besides, why would you pick the same gear as a bunch of career bureaucrats?
Depends on the brand. You'd have to play with lighting a lot to figure out if yours can do things like lit-target/dark-backdrop or vise versa.
And no, an RDS does not suddenly mean you stopped sucking at shooting. It will not compensate for garbage trigger control. It is not magic, and it requires at least as much training as iron sights to be reliable with, perhaps even more.
We have an LCP/CT bought new several years ago.
Unloaded ... etc ... draw and point to a specific target/item with your eyes closed. Open when you think you're on target.
Laser with let you know.
Windage first .... like golf.
I took the CT off as it's for around water use.
Unloaded ... etc ... draw and point to a specific target/item with your eyes closed. Open when you think you're on target.
Laser with let you know.
Windage first .... like golf.
I took the CT off as it's for around water use.
Ziggy2525
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Slightly different than you asked. Have a G19 with a Holosun 507C. I think the red dot makes a G19 too bulky for a carry gun. Jury’s still out on it as a home defense gun. Two things I do like about red dots.
1) Old eyes. It’s hard for me to pick up an iron sight (even tritium) in dim light without my glasses - like if you got rousted from bed in the middle of the night by a burglar. Don’t have that problrm with a red dot.
2) You use a target focus to aim instead of a front sight focus. Seems like more natural approach if someone was trying to hurt you.
1) Old eyes. It’s hard for me to pick up an iron sight (even tritium) in dim light without my glasses - like if you got rousted from bed in the middle of the night by a burglar. Don’t have that problrm with a red dot.
2) You use a target focus to aim instead of a front sight focus. Seems like more natural approach if someone was trying to hurt you.
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Let me muddy the waters with my 2 cents! At the beginning of November, I participated in an adaptive defensive shooting summit (at the Sig Academy) with a focus on disabled shooters. It was an adaptation of an IDPA style match. The competitors ranged from paraplegic to amputees to the legally blind to those with mobility issues due to age, injury, and medical procedures.
Some of the competitors had RDSs on their pistols, and tended to be in the higher scoring cluster. At the close, optics were addressed. Since disabled shooters in a defensive situation don't necessarily have the mobility to take advantage of available cover, we need to negate the threat expeditiously while exposed to incoming fire. In our training preceding the match, emphasis was placed on shooting controlled pairs (aka "double taps") to the chest and head.
Our training encompassed engaging 2 to 5 threats in a single engagement. While no-one used a laser, it was pointed out that using an RDS was faster in engaging the target since you don't have to focus on aligning sights and placing them on target. It was also pointed out that the RDS body can facilitate chamber checks and reloads when the shooter has only one functional arm.
Honestly, I can't speak to how well you can conceal carry a pistol with an RDS, but the RDS does help to place multiple shots accurately and fast.
Placing an RDS on a compact or sub-compact is something I would have to try before I discounted it.
Some of the competitors had RDSs on their pistols, and tended to be in the higher scoring cluster. At the close, optics were addressed. Since disabled shooters in a defensive situation don't necessarily have the mobility to take advantage of available cover, we need to negate the threat expeditiously while exposed to incoming fire. In our training preceding the match, emphasis was placed on shooting controlled pairs (aka "double taps") to the chest and head.
Our training encompassed engaging 2 to 5 threats in a single engagement. While no-one used a laser, it was pointed out that using an RDS was faster in engaging the target since you don't have to focus on aligning sights and placing them on target. It was also pointed out that the RDS body can facilitate chamber checks and reloads when the shooter has only one functional arm.
Honestly, I can't speak to how well you can conceal carry a pistol with an RDS, but the RDS does help to place multiple shots accurately and fast.
Placing an RDS on a compact or sub-compact is something I would have to try before I discounted it.
The addition of a small red dot sight (RDS) on a compact pistol is not very challenging. I sometimes wear my V1 9mm Shield with the Shield RMS (Ruggedized Miniature Sight) red dot mounted in a custom milled slot.
I already had an extended Kydex AIWB holster. I cut a little away to allow for the sight. No problem.
All shooting is faster and more accurate for me. Inside five yards whatever appears in the target window, even without noticing the dot or iron sights, is where the bullet will hit. It is point shooting with an easy guide.
When I need precision, the dot allows me to focus on the threat, not the out-of-focus iron sights. Where the dot is the bullet will be. There is greater room for sighting latitude since the dot can be anywhere in the window and where the dot is on the target is where the bullet will hit.
Aligning iron sights on the target requires three planes of focus switching quickly, something my eyes are challenged to do. If it is a real threat, the back sight will disappear, and both the target and the front sight will alternately be fuzzy. Human eyesight programming more naturally focuses on the threat. Red dot wins.
I change batteries before they die, at least every six months. It’s cheap and easy. The RMS has an automatic brightness adjuster that works well. The dot changes slightly in size as it gets brighter, but it stays under 4moa.
I recommend it to those who can afford to do it properly, and who will practice grip, presentation and trigger pull sufficiently with the new system in dry fire. This learning curve is short for some—a few hours over a few days—because they are already used to aligning iron sights with a good grip and presentation. Just continue what you’ve been doing but see the dot, realizing you are now focusing on the target rather than the sights.
Iron sights have been around for 150 years. Sure, they have been refined, although some of the refinements are actually confusing to the eye and brain. Nothing is better for sighting than simply overlaying a dot on an in-focus target. RDS are new, therefore there is natural resistance. They will be more and more common.
For most, the initial expense of something new is the deterrent. Trying someone else’s rig is a good idea if you can find one set up the right way and who can instruct competently. Usually start with an RDS on a full size gun. Scaling down is not hard and improves the shootability of the small gun.
I already had an extended Kydex AIWB holster. I cut a little away to allow for the sight. No problem.
All shooting is faster and more accurate for me. Inside five yards whatever appears in the target window, even without noticing the dot or iron sights, is where the bullet will hit. It is point shooting with an easy guide.
When I need precision, the dot allows me to focus on the threat, not the out-of-focus iron sights. Where the dot is the bullet will be. There is greater room for sighting latitude since the dot can be anywhere in the window and where the dot is on the target is where the bullet will hit.
Aligning iron sights on the target requires three planes of focus switching quickly, something my eyes are challenged to do. If it is a real threat, the back sight will disappear, and both the target and the front sight will alternately be fuzzy. Human eyesight programming more naturally focuses on the threat. Red dot wins.
I change batteries before they die, at least every six months. It’s cheap and easy. The RMS has an automatic brightness adjuster that works well. The dot changes slightly in size as it gets brighter, but it stays under 4moa.
I recommend it to those who can afford to do it properly, and who will practice grip, presentation and trigger pull sufficiently with the new system in dry fire. This learning curve is short for some—a few hours over a few days—because they are already used to aligning iron sights with a good grip and presentation. Just continue what you’ve been doing but see the dot, realizing you are now focusing on the target rather than the sights.
Iron sights have been around for 150 years. Sure, they have been refined, although some of the refinements are actually confusing to the eye and brain. Nothing is better for sighting than simply overlaying a dot on an in-focus target. RDS are new, therefore there is natural resistance. They will be more and more common.
For most, the initial expense of something new is the deterrent. Trying someone else’s rig is a good idea if you can find one set up the right way and who can instruct competently. Usually start with an RDS on a full size gun. Scaling down is not hard and improves the shootability of the small gun.
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Personal opinion: Optics are fine for rifles, carbines, and full size pistols used for competition and hunting and perhaps for home defense. Optics on a carry pistol adds bulk, creates more edges to snag, and makes CCW more difficult. Most self-defense encounters are at very close range, usually muzzle contact and out to about 10 feet. Odds are, you won't even have time to focus on the sights before it's all over. I don't see optics as being a big asset under these circumstances.
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I may have misinterpreted the OP. I’m not sure what constitutes a”micro red dot” and “sub compact”.
I don’t know of an RDS with a smaller footprint than a Shield RMS. The new version, the RMSc, is a little narrower but the same length. It is only marginally smaller than the most popular pistol RDS, the Trij. RMR. I have three of those mounted on larger pistols. Compared to what is sometimes mounted on a carbine or rifle, the RMR is compact. So maybe the Shield RMS is micro compact, but I don’t recall having it be labeled that way.
A subcompact handgun is probably smaller than the Shield I posted above. I choose not to carry anything smaller than the Shield, so I forget there is a whole class of smaller handguns people choose to carry.
I would not put an optic on a sub compact. The guns typically are not as wide as the sight so secure mounting would be a problem. It would have edges that snag, especially for pocket carry. It would increase the gun’s profile and reduce concealment. Such a simple gun designed first for concealment and then for minimal performance at close range hardly needs any sights at all. Point and shoot.
I sometimes carry in Thunderwear. I can conceal another Shield I have with Heine Straight Eight iron sights in that cloth pocket suspended AIWB below my belt. No RDS on that one because of reduced concealment and potential for snagging drawing from deep cover. I can wear that setup with any tucked in shirt as the shirt is tucked behind the holster. It is my answer to pocket carry. It is also why I don’t need to go to a sub compact or lower caliber than 9mm for deep concealment. I have used this method for over 20 years, first with a Kel-Tec P11, then Kahr P9 and now the S&W Shield.
I don’t know of an RDS with a smaller footprint than a Shield RMS. The new version, the RMSc, is a little narrower but the same length. It is only marginally smaller than the most popular pistol RDS, the Trij. RMR. I have three of those mounted on larger pistols. Compared to what is sometimes mounted on a carbine or rifle, the RMR is compact. So maybe the Shield RMS is micro compact, but I don’t recall having it be labeled that way.
A subcompact handgun is probably smaller than the Shield I posted above. I choose not to carry anything smaller than the Shield, so I forget there is a whole class of smaller handguns people choose to carry.
I would not put an optic on a sub compact. The guns typically are not as wide as the sight so secure mounting would be a problem. It would have edges that snag, especially for pocket carry. It would increase the gun’s profile and reduce concealment. Such a simple gun designed first for concealment and then for minimal performance at close range hardly needs any sights at all. Point and shoot.
I sometimes carry in Thunderwear. I can conceal another Shield I have with Heine Straight Eight iron sights in that cloth pocket suspended AIWB below my belt. No RDS on that one because of reduced concealment and potential for snagging drawing from deep cover. I can wear that setup with any tucked in shirt as the shirt is tucked behind the holster. It is my answer to pocket carry. It is also why I don’t need to go to a sub compact or lower caliber than 9mm for deep concealment. I have used this method for over 20 years, first with a Kel-Tec P11, then Kahr P9 and now the S&W Shield.
MagGuts +2. Makes my Shield 10+1 with a 10-rnd backup. Thinner and o/w no bigger or heavier than my wife’s 640-1 5-shot revolver.
Smith & Wesson Shield 9mm +2 MagGuts
Smith & Wesson Shield 9mm +2 MagGuts
Doug M.
Member
I have a 4" Shield 2.0 w/RDS. It is an excellent platform. I have a Glock 42 on which it would likely be hard to fit an RDS, but I admit I have not considered it. It is mostly for my wife to have access to a small platform for an NPE that will not be too hard to shoot with her disabilities.
A very large number of some of the most serious shooters around have done a lot of work with the RDS and swear by them. There is a HUGE discussion (60 pages or so at last look) in the secondary weapons forum on LF. The agency for which I am legal advisor is moving quickly to them, having authorized them at deputy option, and starting to issue them (and do a transition course) for those who have any vision issues. (I grumped at the Commander when he referred to Deputy X as old; I've probably got 20 years on him.) If for some reason I were to return to a sworn uniformed position I would almost certainly have an RDS equipped M&P.
For military, LE, and personal defense use, it is a tremendous option that is highly likely to improve one's performance under hostile conditions. It is especially useful if one has any vision difficulties at all that will impact performance. (And I vigorously disagree with the comment about not using sights at close distance. A flash sight picture ala Cooper's early teachings is not slow.)
A very large number of some of the most serious shooters around have done a lot of work with the RDS and swear by them. There is a HUGE discussion (60 pages or so at last look) in the secondary weapons forum on LF. The agency for which I am legal advisor is moving quickly to them, having authorized them at deputy option, and starting to issue them (and do a transition course) for those who have any vision issues. (I grumped at the Commander when he referred to Deputy X as old; I've probably got 20 years on him.) If for some reason I were to return to a sworn uniformed position I would almost certainly have an RDS equipped M&P.
For military, LE, and personal defense use, it is a tremendous option that is highly likely to improve one's performance under hostile conditions. It is especially useful if one has any vision difficulties at all that will impact performance. (And I vigorously disagree with the comment about not using sights at close distance. A flash sight picture ala Cooper's early teachings is not slow.)
I’ve always been a front sight focused shooter. One eye closed. Strong right eye on the sights. That has served me well. I’ve been a little skeptical of red dot sights on handguns. Then my shooting buddy Bart got a CORE 9mm with an optic. Amazingly, his capabilities improved. Not to be outdone, or passed by, I bought a Deltapoint Pro for one of my handguns. It took awhile but it feels natural now and I’m shooting with both eyes open. My shots longer than 15 yards seem easier. I only have one handgun equipped. Close shots in fast speed, about the same optic vs no optic. Longer range, I believe I can put more accurate shots on target faster with less effort. I’m becoming a believer.
daglockman
Member
I am a believer in the RDS. Shooting with both eyes open gives you better situational awareness also. I don't believe that it is a new thing, but I do believe that it is the future of combat sights. And I consider defensive shooting to be a combat situation. After shooting carry optics in USPSA I found how the outline of the optic itself gives you a sight picture up close.
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OP
LF? Luger Forum?
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HardToHandle
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LF is Light Fighter. Originally dedicated to infantry-type hacks and tips but as the audience has matured, it is much more civilian and law enforcement focused.
Primary and Secondary is another similar site with discussion on contemporary tactics and training thought.
Remember we are in year 18 of the Long War. The young men of those two decades have been very, very active in terminating bad guys the world over. Some of the comments above are pretty disappointing... the Millennials and young enlisted downrange are as good as any previous generation. They have proved it in blood and tears.
Primary and Secondary is another similar site with discussion on contemporary tactics and training thought.
Remember we are in year 18 of the Long War. The young men of those two decades have been very, very active in terminating bad guys the world over. Some of the comments above are pretty disappointing... the Millennials and young enlisted downrange are as good as any previous generation. They have proved it in blood and tears.
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