TWO INSTANCES IN 2 WEEKS TO BACK UP MY RED DOT OPINION ON A EDC/CCW GUN

[Sgt. Buzzard]

I agree. My six shooter don't need optical sights.

And that sir is one of the best snubbies I've seen here. Holster worn bluing, action worn bluing, even the checkering is worn. A true carry gun.

I really wish the city didn't take my 10-6 back for trade value, I would have given them so much more. Each scratch and ding had a story to tell.

 

[Brian Parrish]

The last line says it all. If your gun malfunctions as you are firing it, go immediately into a an "Immediate Action Drill". The is when your gun malfunctions the shooter starts preforming a series of steps to rectify the problem. We were taught "Tap, Rack, Bang" . Tap the butt of the pistol smartly on you palm, if that does not work, then rack the slide, and the pull the trigger (Bang). Most people just stop and stare at their gun trying to figure out what is wrong with it. It only takes a few seconds to accomplish this. If this does not fix the problem, then take cover to troubleshoot the problem. You can have someone put failures into you gun for you to develop the skill set to troubleshoot on the fly.

Yes!
Great always to enjoy your contribution here AJ. I'm a fan!

I would just add this thought. You may need to attack your assailant in some other way. Fixing your weapon is fine if you got time. And by time I don't just mean time, I mean space.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I’ve been thinking of a red dot for quite a while now. And I’ve spent the last few months renting guns with optics at a local range.

The dot has greatly improved my accuracy. I will be buying one soon.

It is our responsibility to do whatever it takes to hit our target accurately each and every time.

 

[Guevera]

I’ve seen some very articulate responses on this thread, but I have to wonder if the fundamental issue of this whole discussion isn’t distance of engagement? I mean, I don’t have any expectation of needing to be ringin’ steel or anything else at 100 yards with a pistol.
If something is going wrong at that distance, I either need to remember where my rifle is real quick or else leave pronto.
Seems like the nicety of RDS would be moot in any pistol-range scenario, which I suspect is not as great a distance as most people might think.

Edited to add I just saw a post above that impressed me: “three shots, three yards, three seconds.”

 

[chief38]

I’m going to go out on a limb and bet that your eyesight is still good enough to iron sights. Some of us are forced to use an optic due to aging eyes.

As others have said I’ve seen guns fail for a host or reasons. However, I do find that you get what you pay for. Don’t expect a cheap, discount sight to perform like one of the top tier units.

Yes it is. I wear cheaters for reading but still have 20/20 and don't wear glasses for driving.

 

[chief38]

Red Dot or not - to each is own. We all have our own opinions and that is fine. For those who do use a red dot on their EDC/CCW/SD guns, I sincerely hope you never have a failure when it counts.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Red Dot or not - to each is own. We all have our own opinions and that is fine. For those who do use a red dot on their EDC/CCW/SD guns, I sincerely hope you never have a failure when it counts.

That’s why they call it “co-witnessing”.

A red dot is an enhancement. It does not take the place of the sights. It doesn’t matter if the red dot fails.

Not only that, but if the sight does fail, all you need to do is place the red dot window on the bad guys chest. At close range of course.

 

[AJ]

Yes!
Great always to enjoy your contribution here AJ. I'm a fan!

I would just add this thought. You may need to attack your assailant in some other way. Fixing your weapon is fine if you got time. And by time I don't just mean time, I mean space.

Attacking in some other way? Fix bayonet and charge? If there is not time or space then you try the "fight or flight" response.

Should I have mentioned cover and concealment? Use to teach that when I taught. Retreating to or using either is preferred to standing in the open if you have a choice. Cover is bullet resistant. Concealment hides you but won't stop a bullet.

 

[eb07]

I’ve seen some very articulate responses on this thread, but I have to wonder if the fundamental issue of this whole discussion isn’t distance of engagement? I mean, I don’t have any expectation of needing to be ringin’ steel or anything else at 100 yards with a pistol.
If something is going wrong at that distance, I either need to remember where my rifle is real quick or else leave pronto.
Seems like the nicety of RDS would be moot in any pistol-range scenario, which I suspect is not as great a distance as most people might think.

Edited to add I just saw a post above that impressed me: “three shots, three yards, three seconds.”

See Eli Dicken. Engaged active mall shooter at 40 yards with iron sights. Fired ten rounds from a glock 19 with busted up sights from a motorcycle accident. Hit him 8 times. He saved many lives by having the fortitude and obvious proficiency with his handgun.

Red Dot or not - to each is own. We all have our own opinions and that is fine. For those who do use a red dot on their EDC/CCW/SD guns, I sincerely hope you never have a failure when it counts.

I have backup iron sights and I practice with them

It all comes down to training. See:


Pistol Mounted Red Dot Sight Failures and How to Deal with Them - Uncle Zo


Easy to shut dot down practice with backup irons and to tape RDS up and practice using top of optic.



Know your firearm....




If it's not for you, all good. We have many choices. But it is technology I embrace and it is effective and reliable.

 

[chief38]

Well, I can not answer this question and I dount there is anyone here who can, but here goes.....

I actually wonder about when a pistol sporting a red dot is used in a self defense gun fight, how many actually even use it? I would think at most SD distances the shooting would be point and shoot anyway. Hmmmm

 

[SF VET]

interesting read here with a cup of coffee in the morning, before I get up to do anything. Right now, I am not "carrying" because my two young grandson's are often over when I might have my firearm on the kitchen counter. And they are learning firearm safety and shooting but they are still children.

But a consideration for me, when I was in a carry mode, and will be again when Ollie and Ellis are a bit older, is how I have to dress in the heat and humidity of a South Carolina summer. I do not tolerate heat or humidity at all, due to two years of a chemo course for my Agent Orange CA. My wear for half of the year is lightweight shorts and a thin, heat-reducing T shirt. My carry was/will be my 365 in an IWB holster and putting an optic on it will only make it that much harder to conceal.

Like others, with an uncorrectable astigmatism, only the SIG and Vortex optics work at least somewhat for me, too much flare with Holosun's. Plus, If I want to enjoy some accurate range shooting, I do much better with DOT's, than I can with iron and my aging vision. Bought four DOT handguns in the past year, just for range accuracy.

I was thinking, too, about optics on pistols in a combat situation, good for long range accuracy,, but how can a troooper keep the glass clean in all the dust and water and muck the pistol will be exposed too. Like here, wading in mud and slime up to my waist.

I am in the crowd which imagines any defense situation will be no further than the other side of my car's hood.

All the best, SF VET
[url=https://postimg.cc/K3FmpMdT] [/URL]

 

[Rodan]

Well, I can not answer this question and I dount there is anyone here who can, but here goes.....

I actually wonder about when a pistol sporting a red dot is used in a self defense gun fight, how many actually even use it? I would think at most SD distances the shooting would be point and shoot anyway. Hmmmm

eb07 linked to a study that discussed that very question in post #37 of this thread.

It's amazing what can be learned when you open your mind to new ideas and take the time to research and read about them.

 

[ladder13]

Red dots are great, especially for older shooters. ……….

Of course this is a free country so feel free to sit this innovation out. You can wear spats, ride a bike with a giant front wheel, and watch TV with a rabbit ear antenna. Its all good.

…….

Or buy a hand cranked car





Just kidding folks, check your BP.

I’ve noticed more LE moving to red dots. Of course budgets are limited so there’s been no great switchover, yet.

 

[cracker57]

red dot vs iron
empty chamber VS one in the tube
open carry vs concealed
why did the chicken cross the road
everyone thinks their answer is the right answer. If you don't do it their way you are wrong.
Do what works for you.

 

[silicosys4]

All I see is two cases of people not maintaining their equipment properly. Yes, electronic sights require occasional battery changes to function, just like guns need cleaning occasional cleanings to function.

 

[mscampbell2734]

Everyone has their own opinions and their own experiences.

I've heard that back in the day infantry hated the M16 because it was light and fired a tiny little bullet and would never be as good as the wood and steel M14.

I've also heard that way back in the day the Marine Corps hated the idea of turning in their "03 Springfields for that new M1 thing.

And I've heard that way way way back in the day people refused to go to cartridge guns because they could more easily carry and make do with casting their own lead balls, caps and a dipper of powder in their ball and cap guns.

FACT is technology changes everything. Guns, cars, the food we eat and the air we breath. EVERYTHING CHANGES.

Are optics the future? Yes. PERIOD end of story. Some people will never make the change. Fine you do you. I'm not saying your wrong in your own mind. But going forward optics are the future. Now optics have thermal and/or night vision at prices under $2K. As little as 10 years ago the military was paying $10k for something similar.

I started in the Corps and served during Desert Storm/Desert Shield. Went into law enforcement and I'm going to retire at the end of this month with 30 years and three months.

During my time I've seem the standard issue duty weapons go from Remington 870 shotgun and Beretta 92 to a huge range of semiauto shotguns, AR cabines with most every available option and the duty handgun is the FN509 with light and optional optic while in the Academy.

Few cops have any idea how to shoot a duty revolver and clean and maintain a metal frame weapon because all they know is plastic. 100 years from now shooters will look at those of us who rejected optics the same way we look at guys who wanted to keep their bolt action rifles or ball and cap revolvers.

 

[mscampbell2734]

T

I'll stick with 3 shots, 3 yards, 3 seconds. Its reality based.

I'm getting ready to end my 30 this year and I also went to the FBI LE course.

The 3-3-3 rule went out the door years ago. While cops DO get shot at doors to say this is all they should practice or prepare for is doing them a disservice.

Ranges for LE engagements can vary from spitting distance to well up to 40-50 yards. Depending on the area and terrain, urban concrete jungle to rural county.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjlJ9-xegJQ&t=1013s[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddHHB6eZTWk&rco=1[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv7QPiyFQIo[/ame]

 

[Rick H.]

Lots of information here and a lot of it is baloney. It boils down to do you want to live in the past or in the present. Optics are here to stay regardless of anyone's opinion and we all have opinions. There's good reasons for optics in self defense use and one or two reasons to have iron sights, but iron sights are in the rear view mirror these days. I would be redundant if I went thru the list of benefits for optics, but one that can't be emphasized enough is training. It is far easier to train someone in the use of an optic than iron sights. Is it easier to see three things at once or only two? Obviously the answer is two. Now let's look at another question. When anyone is involved in a close quarter life and death shooting situation do they even use the sights on a pistol regardless of the sights they have? Most often they don't. It becomes a simple and little taught exercise in "point shooting". And in many instances these officers or civilians don't use two hands to engage the bad guy. I find this interesting as most people are trained from day one to use two hands, but they don't when the poop hits the prop....they point and shoot many times one-handed. And don't kid yourself, this is even done with long guns in surprise situations but they usually have two hands on the long gun at least.

And I have yet at 73 years old and having spent 30+ years in law enforcement found any low light iron sights that I really like. At one time I found favor with 3 dot night sights, but found out they actually slowed me down when shooting. From then on it was only one night sight for me that being the front sight. I spent far too much time trying to find and adjust three dots and a target on the range. Not so with an optic sight. They are fast and accurate in any light condition. No wonder old timers used to file off their sights on revolvers. They were useless unless punching holes in paper.

If you want to test your shooting skills shoot a course of fire without sights or optics on your pistol and see what your results are and fire it fast like your life depends on it. Every quality training program today should have a dedicated segment of shooting without sights being used. This is already being done in many of the optical sight familiarization courses I have seen and they do this just in case the optic does in fact fail. You would be surprised how well you can shoot just looking thru the window of an optic. Think of it as a ghost ring sight.

To be honest, most of the problems I have seen with optics aren't the fault of the equipment, it's the fault of the user. Occasionally the batteries are bad, but far more often people don't know how to turn their optic on and they don't know how to adjust dot brightness. And every optic I install I mark the screws with paint so one can tell at a glance it the screws have moved. If you have an optic and you don't mark the screws shame on you as you are asking for trouble. This is no greater caution than a person that inserts a magazine in his/her AR-15 or similar platform and doesn't pull it back to see if its really locked into the gun.

Optics are here to stay and they are far more useful than people think, but don't tell me iron sights are better than optics cuz that isn't true at all and the only person your kidding is yourself

Rick H.

 

[robvious]

Do I own red dots... yes, a few.. do they work, absolutely... do I carry one.. nope.. just one more thing to maintain or fail... I remember one of my late father's friends showing up with laser grips on a J frame when they first came out decades ago... kind of cool.. but dad said.. "guns don't need batteries"... they are probably the future... but at this point I am not... they are just toys for me.... and more importantly, I don't care what you use.. ain't America great...

 

[Frailer]

IMHO the red-dot debate is the 21st Century equivalent of the old caliber debate. It’s much ado about little.

There are legitimate arguments for putting one on a handgun, and there are legitimate arguments against. It comes down to priorities.

My son carries a dot-equipped compact 9mm semiauto IWB. I carry a five shot .38 Special snub in my pocket. Everywhere. Everyday. We practice with them regularly.

The odds that either of us will find ourselves in a situation where we’ll need to employ our chosen arms for their intended purpose are vanishingly small. But we’ll be better equipped than 99% of the population in the unlikely event the **** hits the fan.

Bottom line: it ain’t about the dot.