TWO INSTANCES IN 2 WEEKS TO BACK UP MY RED DOT OPINION ON A EDC/CCW GUN

[chief38]

The main purpose and incentive for me to post this was not over contraversy on wether or not to use a red dot on a SD gun. It was merely to state that over a decade I have personally witnessed at least a half dozen or so failures. Who knows how many fail in the field that I don't know about! Now I will admit to shooting at least once a week, sometimes twice - maybe that is more than most here, I don't know. Like all electronic equipment that breaks, they work flawlessly --- until they don't. Yes, routinely changing batteries will save the embarrassment of a battery dying in a match or at the range but there have been failures due to things other than batteries. Other than a battery change or keeping the lens clean & looking for obvious cracks, how are you supposed to properly "maintain" a red dot? Like most things in life, if it worked yesterday we expect it to work tomorrow - until or if and when it fails for some unknown reason.

Firearms in general can become confusing enough in the intense stress of a gun battle. They can jam for whatever reasons, you can have a "dud" or you might even hit the magazine release by accident - who knows.... So my whole premise is that in most SD shootings we all know they usually take place at relatively close ranges, so why do so many see the need to introduce an entire new set of ways for something to go wrong and possibly confuse them in a time of desperation?

That was my whole point and I only wanted to convey these two recent failures of red dots just over the last few weeks. I don't even remember the brand of the red dots, but I know the two people I speak of here never skimp on firearms or equipment when it comes self defense, so I will say a cheap junky off brand red dot was probably not the issue. I am sorry I seem to beat this subject like a dead horse, it is just important to me and when I see how they can and do fail, I get a bit passionate about not using one for self defense purposes. No intent on offending anyone here, that is for sure.

 

[AJ]

Practice often and become a skilled shooter beyond closeup, unless your vision demands some sort of optical sight. Otherwise, iron sights offer no disadvantage and several advantages.

However, it seems some may use optical sights purely as gadgets to make up for a lack of skill and practice. Regrettably for them, it doesn't work that way. Use that which works best for you, improving your handgun shooting along the way.

Long before optical sight became the vogue for handguns I went to the FBI's Firearms Instructor's Course. One stage during the course was called "Final Protective Fire" (IIRC). We had to shoot at a silhouette target about 1/3 man sized at 3 yards. No sights allowed and as fast as you could. I was using an M1911A1 with eight rounds in it (yes, Condition 1). We had to draw from the holster and start with our hands off the gun. It took me 1.8 seconds to draw and empty the pistol with all eight rounds in the black. I use to practice that at 7 yards using only the front sight with the same general results.

 

[AJ]

The main purpose and incentive for me to post this was not over contraversy on wether or not to use a red dot on a SD gun. It was merely to state that over a decade I have personally witnessed at least a half dozen or so failures. Who knows how many fail in the field that I don't know about! Now I will admit to shooting at least once a week, sometimes twice - maybe that is more than most here, I don't know. Like all electronic equipment that breaks, they work flawlessly --- until they don't. Yes, routinely changing batteries will save the embarrassment of a battery dying in a match or at the range but there have been failures due to things other than batteries. Other than a battery change or keeping the lens clean & looking for obvious cracks, how are you supposed to properly "maintain" a red dot? Like most things in life, if it worked yesterday we expect it to work tomorrow - until or if and when it fails for some unknown reason.

Firearms in general can become confusing enough in the intense stress of a gun battle. They can jam for whatever reasons, you can have a "dud" or you might even hit the magazine release by accident - who knows.... So my whole premise is that in most SD shootings we all know they usually take place at relatively close ranges, so why do so many see the need to introduce an entire new set of ways for something to go wrong and possibly confuse them in a time of desperation?

That was my whole point and I only wanted to convey these two recent failures of red dots just over the last few weeks. I don't even remember the brand of the red dots, but I know the two people I speak of here never skimp on firearms or equipment when it comes self defense, so I will say a cheap junky off brand red dot was probably not the issue. I am sorry I seem to beat this subject like a dead horse, it is just important to me and when I see how they can and do fail, I get a bit passionate about not using one for self defense purposes. No intent on offending anyone here, that is for sure.

Chief38,

It is all Murphy's Law -- "IF IT CAN GO WRONG, IT WILL GO WRONG!"

 

[rockquarry]

Chief38- The battery-operated gadgeteer faction may not agree with your practical comments, but it's a very good post.

 

[Rodan]

The main purpose and incentive for me to post this was not over contraversy on wether or not to use a red dot on a SD gun.

Sorry Chief, with all due respect, this is the third 'anti-optic' thread you've started in 3 months... not buying it.

I usually let these threads pass by, but there's a lot more "get off my lawn" being posted than accurate facts about the current state of the technology and training. There's a reason dot sights have become nearly ubiquitous on combat shoulder arms, and that same reason is why they are becoming more and more common on handguns, and why many LE agencies are transitioning to optics on issued handguns. That reason is improved speed and accuracy under stress (combat). Period.

Otherwise, iron sights offer no disadvantage and several advantages.

Actually, the opposite is true.

The only real advantage of 'irons' is "reliability", though I have seen plenty of sight failures on handguns in 40 years on the range. About the only 'irons' that are completely reliable are fixed sight revolvers where the sight is physically part of the barrel/frame. If it has a dovetail/pin/stake/screw, I've seen it fail.

The major disadvantage of iron sights is having multiple planes of focus when addressing a threat, something a red dot is the perfect solution for. When you're using a dot properly, the focus is on the threat, where it should be. Firearms (with iron sights) are unique in the history of handheld weapons that we have to look at, and focus on the weapon to use it 'properly', when our focus should be on the threat.

Irons don't work well in diminished light, or for older shooters with close focus issues. Dots are far superior in both respects.

The only reason irons seem simple and easy is because of our years of experience and practice. The reality is that it's much easier to teach a new shooter to use a dot, because they're doing what's natural: focusing on the threat.

 

[stanmerrell]

My son bought one last month and has been carrying open with it the past month. His comment was at night standard night sights are better.

 

[Steve_Revo_]

As some may already be aware of, I am not a fan of optical sights of any kind on a carry gun.

I’m going to go out on a limb and bet that your eyesight is still good enough to see iron sights. Some of us are forced to use an optic due to aging eyes.

As others have said I’ve seen guns fail for a host or reasons. However, I do find that you get what you pay for. Don’t expect a cheap, discount sight to perform like one of the top tier units.

 

[rockquarry]

Sorry Chief, with all due respect, this is the third 'anti-optic' thread you've started in 3 months... not buying it.

I usually let these threads pass by, but there's a lot more "get off my lawn" being posted than accurate facts about the current state of the technology and training. There's a reason dot sights have become nearly ubiquitous on combat shoulder arms, and that same reason is why they are becoming more and more common on handguns, and why many LE agencies are transitioning to optics on issued handguns. That reason is improved speed and accuracy under stress (combat). Period.


Actually, the opposite is true.

The only real advantage of 'irons' is "reliability", though I have seen plenty of sight failures on handguns in 40 years on the range. About the only 'irons' that are completely reliable are fixed sight revolvers where the sight is physically part of the barrel/frame. If it has a dovetail/pin/stake/screw, I've seen it fail.

The major disadvantage of iron sights is having multiple planes of focus when addressing a threat, something a red dot is the perfect solution for. When you're using a dot properly, the focus is on the threat, where it should be. Firearms (with iron sights) are unique in the history of handheld weapons that we have to look at, and focus on the weapon to use it 'properly', when our focus should be on the threat.

Irons don't work well in diminished light, or for older shooters with close focus issues. Dots are far superior in both respects.

The only reason irons seem simple and easy is because of our years of experience and practice. The reality is that it's much easier to teach a new shooter to use a dot, because they're doing what's natural: focusing on the threat.

I can't buy into your beliefs and alleged convictions, but certainly have regard for your privilege to express them. Hardly worth arguing.

 

[Rodan]

Hardly worth arguing.

I'm happy to listen if you have a factual argument to present...

And that is my point regarding this thread.

For those that might like to read up on the science on the subject, this is an excellent start: Aaron Cowan's white paper on RDS for duty handguns

 

[AJ]

I wonder what Elmer and Skeeter would say.................?

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

Three decades carrying a honkin' big duty gun. Two more decades retired carrying as light and simple as I can. S&W 442. Five bullets inside, nothing on the outside. Don't even want a hammer to get in the way.

I too went to the FBI firearms instructors school. It was back in the revolver days. There's no need for anything more than the front blade at any reasonable combat distance. Instinctive shooting from a high ready position works wonders. And very fast.

You want to be ready for that 40 yard across the mall shot? Fine, screw on the RDS.
But if you hit that kid sitting at a table eating a hot dog you better have a lawyer on retainer. Either way you lose your house, pension, whatever.

I'll stick with 3 shots, 3 yards, 3 seconds. Its reality based.

 

[Doug M.]

A few thoughts here. I do use and like XS big dots on a few pistols I have. As a private citizen user, they are likely adequate. I can shoot them to 15 yards or more. I learned about RDS on a combat rifles from Pat Rogers, and the improvement in performance versus standard AR sights is staggering. The same can be true with pistols.

First: Quality costs. As far as I can tell, there are a few first line RDS. I have been pleased with Aimpoint. Had one fail. An anomaly. I've also had a good iron come off a pistol. Stuff happens. EOTCH? Hell no. They got hammered in fraud litigation, for cause. If I was starting from scratch, I'd look hard at the new Glock combination with Aimpoint.

Second: Serious users (LE/SOCOM) have been testing and using RDS on handguns for well over a decade now. I think the string about them on LF was started in 2008. There have been a lot of lessons about gear and training since then. There is now no excuse at all for LE sidearms to not have RDS and lights - and proper training with them. This includes failure training.

A very good friend of mine is teaching classes on pistols w/RDS at Gunsite and elsewhere. He has been cranking out AARs. There may be some articles and results at American Cop (on line).

What does or does not work for you and your life should be looked at analytically. RDS on a pocket pistol are likely not anyone's friend. I don't have any pocket carried gear with an RDS. Could you be in a situation in which a precision shot at distance is needed, even as a private citizen (Indiana mall case)? Yup. With my eyes, an RDS would improve performance and reduce risk.

 

[sigp220.45]

The main purpose and incentive for me to post this was not over contraversy on wether or not to use a red dot on a SD gun. It was merely to state that over a decade I have personally witnessed at least a half dozen or so failures. Who knows how many fail in the field that I don't know about! Now I will admit to shooting at least once a week, sometimes twice - maybe that is more than most here, I don't know. Like all electronic equipment that breaks, they work flawlessly --- until they don't. Yes, routinely changing batteries will save the embarrassment of a battery dying in a match or at the range but there have been failures due to things other than batteries. Other than a battery change or keeping the lens clean & looking for obvious cracks, how are you supposed to properly "maintain" a red dot? Like most things in life, if it worked yesterday we expect it to work tomorrow - until or if and when it fails for some unknown reason.

Firearms in general can become confusing enough in the intense stress of a gun battle. They can jam for whatever reasons, you can have a "dud" or you might even hit the magazine release by accident - who knows.... So my whole premise is that in most SD shootings we all know they usually take place at relatively close ranges, so why do so many see the need to introduce an entire new set of ways for something to go wrong and possibly confuse them in a time of desperation?

That was my whole point and I only wanted to convey these two recent failures of red dots just over the last few weeks. I don't even remember the brand of the red dots, but I know the two people I speak of here never skimp on firearms or equipment when it comes self defense, so I will say a cheap junky off brand red dot was probably not the issue. I am sorry I seem to beat this subject like a dead horse, it is just important to me and when I see how they can and do fail, I get a bit passionate about not using one for self defense purposes. No intent on offending anyone here, that is for sure.

Yes, you are beating a dead horse.

 

[rockquarry]

I'm happy to listen if you have a factual argument to present...

And that is my point regarding this thread.

For those that might like to read up on the science on the subject, this is an excellent start: Aaron Cowan's white paper on RDS for duty handguns

Again, no argument, and again, use what is best for you.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Adapt.
Improvise.
Of course, practice what you are going to do if anything goes wrong with your weapons!

 

[M1A4ME]

Dot optics on handguns. Another thing I used to laugh at.

Now I'm 67. Can't even see a front sight without my glasses. Can't guarantee I'll have my glasses on after a fight starts. Or I fall down (can't run anymore - bad knees) while trying to get out of the way of something/someone.

I don't carry a gun unless it's got a dot optic on it.

Haven't had one fail yet. The Trijicon dual illumination red dots had their tritium age enough to no longer be usable in low light and went on the shelf to be replaced by Holosons (another story).

Used to be iron sights were awesome. Not so much when the eyes get old. I still feel the need to carry, so the dot optic works for me.

Dot optics or iron sights is kind of like pistol or revolver. Or 9MM and .45 acp. We carry what we like/works for us. Arguing about it is either a waste of time or a form of enjoyment. I used to work with a guy that really enjoyed arguing. Just one of his personality traits.

 

[eb07]

As some may already be aware of, I am not a fan of optical sights of any kind on a carry gun. Aside for the obvious hinderances of pocket carrying, getting a special holster because of the red dot in some cases, being knocked out of alignment etc. the main reason is because they DO fail more often than one might think. I have witnessed this at least a half dozen times over the years.

Over the last two weeks I have gone to the range with two different people (ironically with the same first name) who had red dot sights installed on their pistols. The first friend had one mounted on his S&W M&P and right after the second magazine full his red dot died. He called me two days later and told me he replaced the batteries and it was then working however that day at the range he had no usable red dot.

The second friend (this past Friday) had his red dot mounted on a Sig P365XL. He had just bought the pistol with the red dot from a friend who owned it briefly and said he had not fired it. The reason for the sale was his friends health. Anyway, he fired the pistol for the first time (12 rounds I believe) and then reloaded. All of a sudden I looked next to me and saw him doing all sorts of funny gyrations and looking for the red dot. He said it had disappeared and won't cone back on. Well, the rest of the day's shooting for him was his rifle. As of yet, I don't know exactly what the issue is but he said he did replace the battery and that was not the issue as it still did not come on.

I truly think I've convinced both of them to carry their CCW's without the red dot sights going forward. Over the last decade I have seen at least 6-8 red dot failures. Some due to batteries, a few due to a broken wire and probably some due to faulty circuitry. Bottom line here is they DO fail from time to time and will delay at least the first shot while you are looking for something not there. Unfortunately even of one works for years, it could still fail at the worst possible time - hence the argument for not using one on a carry gun. This has always been my opinion and over the last 2 weeks this has been reinforced once again. Your guns, your lives, your choice.

Red Dots are now very common with law enforcement and civilian concealed carry and competition. There is enough of a sample size and experience level from SME to prove they are reliable and effective.



Red dots have increased LEO accuracy to over 73% see the five year study here. Very impressive


NLEFIA Pistol RDS Survey - Final Summary - Jan 2025-1.pdf



They have a place and if you purchase reliable equipment to include backup sights, and train with them they will not only last but perform as advertised.


Proper maintenance such as checking function before you need it is imperative and actually training with it off in failure mode is imperative. Just like magazine and ammo related failures... things break. My dots get checked before they go in the holster and batteries are replaced every 6 months whether needed or not. They also get function checked and inspected every cleaning.


I have red dots on two firearms, one is over 15K rounds the other 2K now. No issues.


Just like with everything, change is not for everyone especially if you are not going to put the time and effort in to train and maintain your equipment.



I am a huge fan of the RDS and my experiences are the exact opposite of yours.


You want to see failures? Attend a few introductory CCW classes during the marksmanship phase and see all of the unclean, poorly lubed and maintained non red dot firearms that fail

 

[AJ]

Adapt.
Improvise.
Of course, practice what you are going to do if anything goes wrong with your weapons!

The last line says it all. If your gun malfunctions as you are firing it, go immediately into a an "Immediate Action Drill". The is when your gun malfunctions the shooter starts preforming a series of steps to rectify the problem. We were taught "Tap, Rack, Bang" . Tap the butt of the pistol smartly on you palm, if that does not work, then rack the slide, and the pull the trigger (Bang). Most people just stop and stare at their gun trying to figure out what is wrong with it. It only takes a few seconds to accomplish this. If this does not fix the problem, then take cover to troubleshoot the problem. You can have someone put failures into you gun for you to develop the skill set to troubleshoot on the fly.

 

[Shibadog]

I’ve got a Browning Buckmark target with a red dot that’s a laser. Love it for squirrels and plinking. That said, my carry guns have iron sights, simple, reliable, no snagging, no potential for electronic issues. I carry owb under a T shirt/sweatshirt OR front pocket every single day, and have for well over 3 decades. To ME simple is best. Plinking, hunting sure. Home defense pistol, yea, might be ok if they co witness (don’t know cause myHD pistols all date from pre red dot era). Go with what works for YOU (just don’t forget to use basic sighting systems).

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

As some may already be aware of, I am not a fan of optical sights of any kind on a carry gun. Aside for the obvious hinderances of pocket carrying ...

I agree. My six shooter don't need optical sights.