Relevance of Short Barreled Big Bore Revolvers for Modern Self-Defense

I agree with BOB CAMPBELL when he said in his article in "The Shooter's Blog" APRIL 14, 2020: "After many years of carrying a defensive handgun, I find the same formula works today that worked as when I began studying handguns decades ago."

While the majority of concealed carry handgun permit holders carry semi-autos is that the best choice in all cases for all people for self-defense purposes?

What are the statistics of the armed confrontations? Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted statistics tell us that during the 10 year period between 2004 and 2013, 219 of the 474 officers killed by gunfire in the USA were shot from a distance of no more than five feet. The next deadliest range was six to 10 feet, with 77 officers killed. In contrast, only 27 were killed at distances over 50 feet.

According to master defensive firearms instructor Tom Givens, most gunfights involving civilians and felons takes place at a distance of approximately three to five yards, approximately three and one-half rounds are fired, and no further shooting takes place after approximately three seconds.

What do the above statistics tell us?

Can a big bore revolver still be relevant in an average modern day gunfight today?

No.

1. Contrary to what people believe, reloading a revolver in a short range shootout is virtually impossible. Six is all you get.

2. Gangstas travel in packs, and most of them have semis.

3. Forget statistics. Plan for worst cases when it's your life.

4. How many pros stake their life on a big bore revolver?

5. Load your big bore revolver with dummies
Challenge someone with an airsoft pistol to a fight. You will be humbled, and you will go out and buy a double stack plastic gun.

6. See videos of real encounters
You can empty that revolver in 2 or 3 seconds. Then what?

7. Nobody in the civilian nor LEO world understands the concept of suppression fire
The above mentioned airsoft kid does. He's been in hundreds of realistic shootouts. Suppression uses ammo.

This is your new average. You're in a cell phone store. Three armed thugs come in. One fires a shot at the ceiling. They announce a robbery. You with your revolver are almost hopelessly outgunned. If you contrive to live, you can discuss how things don't change with Mr Campbell.

If you choose revolver, perhaps Mr. Tom Givens will condescend to speak your eulogy when you run out of ammo and die.

5, 6, 8, 17 how many rounds are enough? You can play ‘what if’ scenarios all day long. Suppression fire, really. I am afraid to ask what you carry. M249?

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213th FBINA

Hits on target are what count. Whatever that takes is whats best for any individual. That and proper training are much more important than weapon choice.
I like big holes. I carry a 325PD with moons. A pill container holds 2 reloads so thats 18 rounds along for the ride.And I practice as much as possible.

Imagine JM in a grocery store when 3 gangstas come in and start shooting.

Statistics...................... averages.......... really!!!!

"three and a half rounds fired"........ really!!!!

The odds of one ever needing to fire their handgun is something like 1 in a 1,000,000 ( made up stat)........... so you can argue there's really no need to even carry a loaded gun.

My philosophy......................

Prepare for the worst... hope/pray for the best!

[QUOTE=Univibe;

7. Nobody in the civilian nor LEO world understands the concept of suppression fire


[/QUOTE]

I will agree with that statement.
"Suppression fire" is done with belt fed guns. Not pistols. Larry

Bigger holes are better.

I was in a gunfight in 1974, had to reload w/a speedloader under fire, & was back in the fight in seconds. My agency transitioned to the Glock about 10 years later, a much better fighting tool for cops. My EDC is a 340PD (or LCP dictated by wardrobe needs) b/c light weight is a must given my back & hip issues. My preference would be my M&P Compact if I could tolerate the weight.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I've never seen a surveillance video of a real robbery or armed citizen encounter that involved or even needed a reload. If you use the OP's statistics, everyone should carry a Governor . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I carry 4 rounds in the mag...just to be on the safe side.

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Because of the metric system?

Oh Boy
There are all sorts of statistics like the one that compares ratio of hits to rounds expended in police involved shootings. Back in the day when police carried 6 shot revolvers the ratio was 2 hits per 6 rounds expended, today its 2 hits per 13 rounds.
9MM, 40, and even 45acp are not sufficiently powerful to provide knock down energy so unless you are able to hit the central nervous system of a major artery like the aorta or the femoral , then your adversary will likely remain in the fight until their blood pressure drops to the point they shut down- that can be a very long time depending on the drugs in their system or their adrenaline load.
Anyone who is confronted by several adversaries who have the drop on you who chooses to engage will probably not survive the encounter- your only realistic choices are to comply or run if that is possible.
The old masters like Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton preached fast and accurate shot placement of high energy calibers as the best chance of survival.
This information does not come from me but from a very close friend who was Delta as a young man, spent 24 years as state police ending up as the swat team commander and now works for a defense contractor training group guys. As he once said, he's had more than a few sessions in the "Two Way" shooting gallery.
Lets hope none of us ever have to defend ourselves.

I totally agree with this but dang. I just can't carry around that big of a gun all the time. That would be a part-time job in itself. So I practice a lot with my J frame. I can hold my own in my clubs shooting matches. I think regular, and I do mean regular practice is underrated.

Suppressive fire is not an option for a police officer or an armed civilian at the present time.

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Made it, Ma! Top of the world!

Statistically, the odds of you being in a gunfight as a civilian are nil.

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

We're on a forum populated by us revolver loving luddites, so keep that in mind and expect that to color a lot of the responses.

No, I don't think the revolver is still relevant. For awhile they held on with ultra small carry revolvers (J frames, LCR, etc) and big revolvers for big game, and those still have their advantages, but even they are getting supplanted by small autos like the LCP, G43, an P365, or more powerful autos like the Glock 20 by more and more users.

The full size service revolver has not been relevant for some time. If we're playing the statistics game, none of us are ever going to get into a gunfight in the civilian world, so we may as well just not carry a gun at all, but since we're clearly not going down that road, we may as well use the best tools for the job.

For less than the weight and less than the size (and less than the price...) of a 2.5" Model 19/66 I can use my P365XL and have twice the capacity, faster reloads, better reliability (this gets debated to death, I've had many more issues with revolver reliability than I have with modern autos, and the revolver failures have all been show stoppers until you can get back to the workbench), and similar or better ballistics due to the barrel lengths.

Will a revolver still kill someone dead? Damn right it will. Is it the best defensive tool? Absolutely not. They're still neat and I still love em but we can all do that without ignoring progress in the defensive gun space.

Why not? We're not talking belt fed tactics here.
You might have to burn 4 or 5 rounds to get to cover. You can do that if you're packing a M&P and a spare mag. Likely not, with a revolver.

In a world of compromise, we all do.
Univibe’s experience with airsoft or sim rounds mirrors mine. I have done hours and dozens of scenarios in various digital weapons simulators, FATS, Meggitt, etc. I felt well trained.

Nothing compares to randomness of another human shooting back at you and moving 360 degrees. I got humbled. Run a few dozen drills and you have a realistic assessment of your capabilities. I do not always carry a double stack gun but I understand the major disadvantage of a wheel gun. Example is Texas has 99% chance electric grid - that still sucks when your pipes froze two days ago and you will be freezing for four more days.

Reminds me that I should find some simulation training locally to get practiced up. Occasional qualification shoots are not the same.

LOL...... 35/40 years ago as a predominantly revolver shooter who'd just watched "Serpico" .....
My thinking/imagination was that if I ever really thought I'd need a handgun on a given day....... I'd want two..... a hard hitting .357 magnum revolver.... back then either a 2 1/2 or 4" K-frame ( one speedloader)..... backed up by a Browning HP and 2 extra mags.

My thinking is if I couldn't resolve it with 6 rounds...... I wanted a "New York reload" with a bunch more rounds (13+1)..... and fastest reloads possible.................

Prepare for the worst ....hope for the best.

Today I'd want my 3" 66 and Beretta 92 Centurion 18+1... if I expected a SHTF day........ ...... and a long gun if at all possible!!!!


That said; for an average day in the Burgh..... mine is a 3913 +1 or 2 spare mags.................

Read some Grant Cunningham, and you will soon realize that nobody can prepare for every possibility. In fact, much effort is wasted in trying.

As a result, you need to prepare for the plausible. For most of us, a revolver will handle those situations in which we might find ourselves. Especially if you are not frequenting drug hangouts and consorting with gangs.

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Only a cold warrior

Relevance is a matter of perspective, preference, environment, ability, etc.; what’s not relevant to you may be relevant to someone else.
From my perspective, and that of many others, revolvers still hold significant relevance in the personal defense world; firearms manufacturers would likely argue the same.

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213th FBINA

This is some of the most ridiculous drivel I've read in a long time.

My old agency did in fact have a scenario in which suppressive fire was needed. It was darned odd and likely will never happen again, but it is possible. They used enough ammo that an armory run was needed to get more ammo for the personnel on scene. The general rule is that the best suppressive fire is right smack in the offender's 10 ring.

Ballistically, a big(ish) bore revolver can be perfectly adequate. I'm not a cop anymore, so I am not duty bound to look for and interdict bad guys. When that was my world, I carried a lot of magazines for my duty pistol whatever it was; a spare mag for my BUG, and several spares for my AR. I could be a long way from backup, and anyone who does not allow for Murphy is a fool.

I do my retired qualifications with different platforms on a regular basis. In reality, though, a semi-auto with a RDS is the right answer when I am doing more than just commuting to work (G33 in a pocket holster is my EDC for a lot of good reasons, and I always carry a spare mag and a Surefire light). I am better trained with a semi-auto as a function of my age and opportunities. In reality, I am more likely to be able to justify hitting someone with my car than any other fact pattern, and a car is one heck of a better weapon.

Remember that a handgun is what one carries when there is no specific reason to expect to need a firearm. If you can predict that need and are not duty-bound to be there, be somewhere else. If you have to be there, take a long gun and all the armed friends you can find.

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NHI, 10-8.

OP has some valid points but a short barrel large caliber/frame revolver has limited practicality for personal defense purposes by the military civilians and LE who have transitioned in mass to semi auto pistols.

(bolding mine)

I'd argue they don't, given how much more production/marketing they're giving autos vs revolvers, and how S&W especially clearly feels just fine reducing revolver quality and simplifying the manufacturing to the point where I'm now on my 3rd broken J frame within the last 5 years.

If I had to come up with situations where the revolver makes a lot more sense, I come up with some potential future ban situation or someone not strong enough or otherwise disabled to the point that they can't rack an auto's slide. That's fair, and I'm sure there are others, but they are the exception.

There are reasons police/military agencies have long abandoned the revolver in favor of far better options, just as there are reasons we don't have weekly threads asking if the Glock 18/M&P/Sig 320 are still relevant.

That said, I'd wager none of us are going to be dead in the streets due to us choosing a revolver, just as we'd be fine going unarmed. Having any gun puts you ahead in a defensive situation, and hell, you'll see me around a camp in bear country with my redhawk and a pump gun, despite there being other options these days. Revolvers are damn cool and fun to shoot no matter how you slice it.

Makes sense too me! Larry

Like others have stated, a civilian gunfight scenario is about nil. I live in the Colorado mountains at 11,000 ft and I carry only for predator attacks.
To that end I carry a 629 loaded with Underwood 305.

A civilian gunfight scenario is plausible. I live in the Big City at 50 ft and I carry only for gangsta attacks.

To that end I carry a full size M&P9 and spare mag loaded with Winchester 124.

Hopefully neither of us will need to use our weapons in either of our scenarios.

With what you carry, what is your plan when three armed thugs walk into the store and fire the shot into the ceiling?

Statistics are nice, but if you have to whip it out and use it the stats have already gone sideways on you. And yes it is true, human predators often run in packs. Situational awareness is your friend.

Frankly, I'm fed up with the insipid pursuit of the illusive ideal, one-size-fits-all platform for self-defense, so I just carry what works for me, and that's the approach that I would recommend to anyone, because I guarantee you that in the unfortunate event in which you actually have to draw your weapon in self-defense and pull the trigger, you'll be much better off using what is tried and true for you than the guy who endlessly jumps from gun to gun, cartridge to cartridge, holster to holster, etc in pursuit of the illusive ideal.

Carry what you're confident with, train well with it until you achieve proficiency, and spare yourself the stress and drudgery of following the latest trends just because some agency run by bureaucratic bean-counters claims that through exhaustive testing using vague or otherwise undisclosed methods/parameters they have discovered the ideal platform, if only for the sake of publicity and generating good faith.

Revolvers work just fine, they always have, and what they lack in capacity they more than make up for with their ability to fire much more powerful cartridges, simplistic manual of operation, and versatility.
If capacity were everything, then more police agencies would have most likely adopted the FN Five-seveN or more recently the Ruger-57. According to gunfight statistics, most gunfights are decided within 3 shots, not 17+. Funny how those who favor small caliber semiautomatic pistols always preach about shot placement as an argument against larger caliber cartridges, only to contradict that sentiment with their assertion that you can fit more rounds in the magazine, which you're totally going to need. So which is it, exactly? If any attacker can be successfully brought down with a single well-placed shot, then why is it so important that your gun carries over a dozen rounds of ammunition in the magazine?

Don't get me wrong, I myself carry a double-stack semiautomatic pistol, but not because I think that I need that many rounds, simply because I can carry them with ease, double-stacks tend to fit my hands better, and therefore there's no reason for me not to. I carry what I carry because it works for ME, and unlike some other folks, I'm not so insecure or otherwise egomaniacal that I feel the need to antagonize anyone who chooses to carry something else with insults and nonsensical contradictory rhetoric in a desperate attempt to validate my own personal choices by pushing them as an objective ideal.

This is the sort of senseless debate that only gun guys get into, everyone else in the entire world has the good sense to know that guns are guns, bullets are bullets, and that they don't want to be shot any amount of times by any caliber bullet anywhere on their body. (The illusive Crackerjack Boys driven by their addiction to caramel corn notwithstanding.)

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Big bores make big holes ... big holes leak a lot .
My compact snub nosed carry revolver starts with 4 and ends with 5 .
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

Pharman......

Shots fired 1,2,2,8,2,6......... 6 shootouts .....21rds fired = an average of 3.5 rds per shootout.

But in those 6 shootouts "shots fired" ranged from 1 to 8

In 5 out of 6 a 6 shot revolver is enough 83%
In 4 out of 6 a 5 shot revolver is enough 66%

Statistics.............. can get you killed.

It would be interesting setting in a courtroom listening to some one explain away their "suppressive " fire and the dead & wounded innocents attached to it.

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LEX ET ORDO

[quote=pharman;141066356]By employing 6th grade math skills.

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213th FBINA

I'll put it this way, in West Virginia, you can carry either concealed or open legally without a permit if you can legally purchase a handgun and people here do just that.
In our town, firearms are just a part of our home decor.
The local general store has hardware, groceries, gas, a post office, restaurant and also sells guns and ammo.
Anyway, if a few "gangtas" are stupid enough to want to start some trouble, they'll find at least a half dozen or so "hillbillies" shooting back.

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Keep on Chooglin'

That's pretty deep. My head hurts. I'll switch back to my Steyr GB!

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Because of the metric system?

My money would be on JM even if he was armed only with a two shot derringer.

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You're shy a few manners.

The best defensive gun is the one You have in hand when needed. If possible, duck, cover, and assess. No one walks out the door expecting a gun fight. Those that do, do not carry a handgun as a primary. And remember--- practice,practice, practice.

Capacity discussions are nice and all, but if you live in a state that makes carrying more than ten in a magazine illegal, now the difference is down. And respectfully, I’ve seen some pretty fast speedloader reloads under pressure.

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FiveG

An extra 4-5 rounds difference is still a pretty significant advantage, and for most of us mere mortals the autoloader reloads go a fair bit faster than speedloaders.

You fire three functional rounds and one squib, which makes it only halfway out of the case and ties up the cylinder. That is why no further shooting takes place.

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Formerly Model520Fan

One thing we rarely talk about is ergonomics. I believe none of us practice enough to be able to say that we shoot our carry gun enough that in the case of a high stress encounter we will automatically be able to manipulate our gun to its best advantage. Some military and police units practice shooting hundreds of rounds a week to instill and maintain instinctive accurate fire. (I have been told by those who know that training goes out the window when the **** hits the fan and all that is left is instinct). If that be true then it follows that the more ergonomically correct a handgun is for us as individuals the better off we will be. A case in point; back in the day before I became enlightened I used to carry a Browning Hi-Power. For me, the Hi-power is about as naturally pointing a handgun as there is to the extent that I could pick a point on the wall, close my eyes and point the handgun and when I opened my eyes I'd be aiming very close to my target. In fact, at short ranges I didn't need the sights. Conversely, a 1911 points low for me and I have to consciously compensate. The point to my comments is that we would be far better off choosing our handgun on how well it fits rather than how many rounds it holds. Fortunately a 4" 57 or 29 with full target grips fit me to a "T" as well.

IrishFritz, while I respect that you've been told this by “those who know”, I can’t agree. Having been through a couple of wars and years of reserve deployments in less then friendly environs, it’s true that instinct plays a role. Some have it and some don’t, but to say that training goes out the window is simply false, IME. There is no question in my mind that training, and I mean lots of training, not once or twice a week to the range type training, will make a HUGE difference when the **** hits the fan. Train enough, and train hard, and it WILL kick in when you need it.
Just my two shekels worth.

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!אחרי
144:1

How would I know? Depends on the situation. You know what they say about plans not surviving first contact. But I have 35 rounds on one reload. Being able to keep your gun running, when beset by multiple assailants, is paramount.

Another factor not yet mentioned. You may be moving rapidly while reloading. Much easier to punch out a magazine and cram in a new one than to fumble with a speed loader and the flopping cylinder crane of an empty revolver.

Statistics is three men hunting... one misses the deer on the right, the second misses on the left, the third says "We got him!"

Every gun be it an auto or a revolver has its strengths and its weaknesses just as each individual does.

In a close quarters gunfight there are certain qualities in a firearm that can make or brake the difference in whether you live or die. You can press a short barreled revolver into the body of an individual and it can still fire but if you do that with an auto the slide will most likely be pushed out of battery and fail to fire or at best fire only once before jamming. The revolver can be stopped by a strong grab around the cylinder as the auto can be stopped by shoving the slide back in a close range struggle. As I say all firearms have their limitations. One has to study and learn gunfighting techniques, counter techniques, gun retentions, as well as hand to hand techniques to survive a gun fight in real life. There are quite a few good books and instructors that teach the subject.

Sometimes a "New York Reload" is faster, a better and a life saving option than reloading your empty firearm.

Thinking about TACTICS is the key here and what I want people to think about here. It is not about how many rounds you can carry.

Who says I carry only one gun be it a revolver or single stack auto? You are not thinking tactically but limiting someone to just one gun to fit your scenario.

I have thought of that. If arthritis or some other condition limits me to a revolver, I plan to carry 3 of them. The New York reload makes sense.