380 hard ball, hp

britbike1

britbike1

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Here in MN you never know what kind of clothing you will be wearing day to day. Sometimes the same day. So I was thinking of loading my 380ez with alternating HP and HB. One for penetration and one for expansion and shooting double taps. Any thoughts? Of course I realize things never go according to plan.
 
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I actually like the idea, but the main concern would be reliability. I'd want to run a couple hundred rounds to make sure it cycled correctly every time.
For that matter, I'd be tempted to try at least 50 with the gun fresh out of the fridge or otherwise at the coolest temperature it would normally be used at.
There is a chance that the two rounds would have different points of impact, so you'd want to check that as well out at 25 (or 40) yards.
 
9.9 times out of 10 you aren’t s going to get a 380 hollow point bullet to reliably expand! And, if you could drive them fast enough with a bullet that might expand they will fragment.

Find a round that works, load it. Shoot it until it proves it reliable in your pistol, carry what runs in your pistol. Just trying to rely on any kind of reliable “expansion” with a bullet that has that small of a cavity, at 380 velocities is unreasonable.

Regards, Rick Gibbs
 
Heavy Clothing stopping bullets is an Urban Legend which has long since been disproven by a number of tests which can be easily looked up on YouTube. Not even the heaviest of clothing can stop a .22LR fired from a pistol, let alone more powerful rounds. See for yourself.

Worst Case Scenario: Clothing clogs up a JHP cavity, preventing it from expanding and thusly causing it to behave the same as FMJ.
 
Forte Smitten Wesson said:
Heavy Clothing stopping bullets is an Urban Legend which has long since been disproven by a number of tests which can be easily looked up on YouTube. Not even the heaviest of clothing can stop a .22LR fired from a pistol, let alone more powerful rounds. See for yourself.

Worst Case Scenario: Clothing clogs up a JHP cavity, preventing it from expanding and thusly causing it to behave the same as FMJ.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Some folks mis-think the whole hollow point in a .380 ACP thing.

The big threat in a .380 ACP is a hollow point over expanding and under penetrating, and there are a few known for that.

However there are also some that show good penetration, but expansion is velocity dependent. For example the Hornady XTP expands well bit only if you can launch it at velocities around 975-1000 fps. Below that it doesn’t expand reliably.

Hornady FTX or XTP as well as Remington HTP, Federal HST and Hydra Shok, Remington Golden Saber, and Sig V-Crown are all pretty safe “not gonna under penetrate” loads that will just act like an FMJ if they fail to expand.

Look at it this way. If a hollow point only partially expands or only expands 60% of the time and still gets you at least 12” of penetration. It’s going to be better than an FMJ that is guaranteed to never expand.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP

The much more important question when it comes to hollow point versus FMJ is whether the Hollow point functions with 100% reliability in your handgun.
 
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A boatload of reading here Is ball still best for .380 ACP Ammo for mouse guns? but we’ll worth the time!
I find myself carrying a GLOCK 42 an awful lot, due in part to weather and clothing. But I do so with the full realization that the .380 ACP has limitations (especially in most, but not all, Hollow Point configurations) and if used for personal defense, it will be close up and personal in the upper torso circulatory zone…
 
One of the critical issues with .380 ACP and even more so .32 ACP is velocity.

It’s a lot like a standard pressure .38 Special out of a 1 7/8” revolver versus a 4” revolver, except the .380 ACP and in particular the .32 ACP take a much bigger hit.

However, even the .32 ACP in a 3.9” barrel with a 60 gr XTP penetrates 12” and gives decent expansion.

001(77).jpg

001(76).jpg


You have to get the velocity up to at least 1000 fps for reliable expansion and you can’t do that in a 2.75” barrel.

There is a temptation to go really small with mouse gun calibers, but that usually doesn’t turn out well in terms of terminal ballistics. The PP in .32 ACP was a popular police pistol for decades in Europe, but the long barrel is what made it an even marginally viable choice.

001(75).jpg
 
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This thread reminds me of the Dave Chapelle skit: Birdshot, buckshot, birdshot, buckshot, buckshot, buckshot!


I think the FTX is probably the best compromise for 380's. It feeds well and performs about as well as anything else in ballistic tests. Worst case, it behave like an FMJ (maybe with less danger of ricochet). I wouldn't mix loads.
 
teletech said:
I actually like the idea, but the main concern would be reliability. I'd want to run a couple hundred rounds to make sure it cycled correctly every time.
For that matter, I'd be tempted to try at least 50 with the gun fresh out of the fridge or otherwise at the coolest temperature it would normally be used at.
There is a chance that the two rounds would have different points of impact, so you'd want to check that as well out at 25 (or 40) yards.
Click to expand...

If the gun will feed with magazines of ball load, and magazines of HP loads, it will feed just fine with alternating loads in the same magazine.
For SD use in a .380, if you can keep your shots in a cantaloupe-sized group at 0 to 10 yards, you are good to go.
Realistically, keeping most shots in about 12” group out to 5 yards is good enough.
Longer distances are fun to play with ( I do it myself ), but if you are shooting at someone in an SD situation at 25+ yards, you are probably screwing up.
 
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Thank you

Thank you for all your responses. I guess I have some reading up to do, and utubing. So if a HP does not reliably expand but may either expand or act like a HB then what would really be the problem with alternating them as compared to using all HB as long as they function reliably in my 380 ez and my Bersa. These are house guns and not for long range.
 
BB57 said:
There is a temptation to go really small with mouse gun calibers, but that usually doesn’t turn out well in terms of terminal ballistics. The PP in .32 ACP was a popular police pistol for decades in Europe, but the long barrel is what made it an even marginally viable choice.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, most people carry a mousegun caliber because of the "mouseguns" they work in.
Not much reason for a PP sized gun with the modern choices available, other than nostalgia.
 
Most of the older 380s and 32s were designed for ball ammo. Same with many of the older 9mm pistols of European origin. Example Sig P6 West German police issue pistol. Maybe not ideal by todays standards but worked for them for general military and police use.
 
I carry Hornady Critical Defense in all my 380s and have had to use it on an attacking (huge) Rottweiler. Kimber Micro 380 one shot stop to the head and he was dead before he hit the ground. I will swear by that stuff. In 35 years of marrage, I had never heard my wife scream like that morning.
 
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Paul in Nevada said:
This thread reminds me of the Dave Chapelle skit: Birdshot, buckshot, birdshot, buckshot, buckshot, buckshot!


I think the FTX is probably the best compromise for 380's. It feeds well and performs about as well as anything else in ballistic tests. Worst case, it behave like an FMJ (maybe with less danger of ricochet). I wouldn't mix loads.
Click to expand...

I partially disagree. For a shorter barrel .380 ACP I think the 90 gr FTX is the way to go. It has pretty reliable expansion at 800-900 fps without running the risk of under penetrating.

However in a longer (3.5” to 3.9”) .380 ACP I prefer the 90 gr XTP provided it’s a max load. It will achieve 1000-1050 fps and will give fairly reliable expansion with 12-13” penetration. In the same gun at those same velocities the FTX tends to under penetrate at around 10”.

But between the two of them, Hornady has it covered.



——



I’ve been impressed with the Sig V-Crown bullets as well in .380 ACP and 9mm. They seem to have found a sweet spot as they seem to penetrate 15-16” over a fairly wide velocity envelope with the major difference being how much they expand.

These are 9mm fired in a 3.15” Kimber Micro 9, 4” Kimber Pro Carry, and 8.9” MP5. All of them penetrated a near perfect 15-16” in 10% ballistic gel, and the increasing expansion at higher velocities is obvious:

001(124).HEIC
 
petepeterson said:
On the other hand, most people carry a mousegun caliber because of the "mouseguns" they work in.
Not much reason for a PP sized gun with the modern choices available, other than nostalgia.
Click to expand...

I don’t disagree. But it is what it is and if you want “really small” .32 ACP isn’t your friend and .380 ACP is potentially a better choice.

The caveat here is that .32 ACP is much easier to shoot well in a small pistol. In a PP, PPK/S or PPK .32 ACP is very pleasant to shoot, offers 1 more round in the mag than .380 ACP and allows a much faster follow up shot. A good PP shooter can dump all 8 rounds into center of mass in an impressively short period of time, much shorter than with the same gun shooting .380 ACP.

If you are shooting FMJ, given almost identical velocities and penetration distances, the extra round and the ability to deliver the, with equal accuracy in a lot less time makes up for tue smaller .32 ACP diameter.

But again, put the .32 ACP in something small like the Beretta Tomcat and you start to sacrifice most of that speed advantage as well as the extra round.
 
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