How many people concealed carry a pistol and pepper spray?
I like the Idea of non lethal protection as shooting someone should be a last resort.
However lets say you live in a not so friendly gun location, you have pepper spray on you but the SHTF NOW so you use your pistol to stop the threat instead of your pepper spray. There was no time to see if the pepper spray is effective or not.
D.A. says they could have used their pepper spray to stop the threat CHARGE THEM, they didn't need to use lethal force. Thats what pepper spray is for and they had it on them.
Whats your thoughts?

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Carry on....

I have been wondering about that very thing myself.
That’s why I only carry pepper spray if I have to go someplace where bad dogs could be an issue, which is almost never.

Not to steal the thread but what are considered the best pepper sprays??

It's a double edged sword. If you carry both items, which one do you reach for first? Also depending on the situation & it's subsequent escalation you only have a split second to make a decision & hope it's the right decision.
As you may have observed most LEO types carry both But they are trained in their use. The average armed citizen is not, plus some locales Mace is Not legal. In theory to carry both with the discretion to use non lethal means to defend oneself is a nice option.
In conclusion, I guess carry both and train for both if that's what gives you peace of mind. There's just too many variables you'll have to weigh out each situation and where your traveling to, to make each individual decision.

I have CC'd for 37 years and never found a need for a pepper spray but I have one daughter that can not carry at work so she keeps a Saber Red Crossfire pepper gell in her hand going to and from her car . After locking up her purse and larger saber red fell she keeps a smaller Saber 3in1 on her for at work needs and a good flipper folder knife .

Our youngest daughter does not have to deal with some NO Firearm restrictions at work so she CC's every time she's out of her house .

Remember that self defense spray's do have a limited range to them and most spray can blow back into your eyes depending on the wind so a gell may be better ! But also carry a good legal knife and some skills with it .

When LE uses pepper spray, there's usually a cover officer with a drawn gun. Also, LE is trained to fight through the pepper spray if they get sprayed. The stuff isn't as effective on man or beast if the fight response is already on.

If you do decide to carry OC, look for the highest Scoville heat rating you can get. High percentage of low heat rating OC isn't as good as a lower percentage of higher rated.

True, true. I just watched a documentary on a local academy. Also recently spoke to a cadet that had gone through it. He said it's definitely something he never wants to experience again, LOL.

That said, a local trainer here recommended POM. You can order it as a 'pair', with one live, and one practice dispenser. That's a great way to go.

I have a LOT of experience with OC in various sorts having worked at a prison for many years. If you are dealing with one bad guy and it isn't raining and you are not down-wind from your own spray it has it's uses. The GEL spray is not too shabby either, it has much less tendancy to blow back in your face. Also, as noted above it can be useful to discourage aggressive dogs, again if you are not dealing with a LOT of aggressive dogs. Plus you don't have the possible flack from shooting somebody's pet that just accidentally got out and is really a nice dog, when not running with a pack, or so they will say to a civil jury.

I do. For the same reason I carried it as a cop, it gives me an intermediate, less lethal option.

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213th FBINA

This. Don't bet your life on OC.

Remember that OC doesn't work on everyone, especially those who are enraged, high, drunk, adrenalized, or just plain crazy.

I carried OC and a gun for most of my security "career". I never, not one time had to pull my gun out at work. The only exception to that was a couple of times where I had to clear abuilding and that was protocol that's what we were supposed to do according to company policy.

I frequently had my pepper spray in my hand when I approached somebody.

I can't think of a single time where I had to stop and think is a gun or pepper spray more appropriate for this application.

I also noticed that almost everybody that I ran into did not care or was not intimidated in the least by the fact that I was openly armed. A bunch of them would dare me to shoot them whether I had the gun out or not. But when I pulled out the pepper spray I got almost instant compliance every single time. They didn't think that I'd actually shoot them but they absolutely believed that I would spray them

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Retired Career Security Guard

I carry pepper gel and a firearm and a knife. The pepper spray that I used to carry came in handy on a dog that was after me. I changed to the Pepper gel because of the wind factor. Sabre recommended the Gel because it’s more stable in the wind. Whether it be animal or person I guess I would have to decide the severity of the attack and which weapon I would use. In the case of the dog, I had plenty of time to decide I didn’t want to kill a dog just change his mind. It worked.

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Two Handguns every day

One point to ponder is that OC spray is not considered deadly force as a firearm would be. The standard for use is not the same as deadly force. If you make a mistake, the consequences are far less than if you use a firearm.

Also, as stated above, distance, wind can have negative effects, plus it just doesn't work well on some people, though it generally does.

Used it quite a few times as a LEO, and it can be an effective tool in the use of force continuum.

Now retired, I don't carry it on my person, but I do keep a riot sized fogger of OC in my side door panel of my truck. Used it once, maybe 6 or 7 years ago to prevent a road rage incident from escalating any farther than it had. Worked well.

It's better than your bare hands, but if the situation is such you feel in immediate danger of death or serious harm, then that's what your firearm is for, especially if the thug is armed. As a civilian, even if you are carrying OC, you are under no obligation to use it first if you believe the threat against you reaches the level of deadly force.

Larry

I am a Senior Citizen and a retired cop and for the public, pepper spray will not make a difference. Call 9-1-1

We all CCW for the worst possible scenario. Do not get involved in petty nonsense because you have pepper spray.

Speaking as someone who does this stuff for a living: If a low quality prosecutor who does not know what they don't applies that kind of legal theory, they only way to address it is a high quality defense attorney and likely a good expert. They should be disbarred with a quickness.

Remember that use of force generally is an hour or two of the total in law school, and it takes hundred of hours of education to have a basic grasp of the issues for litigation. If there are 1000 attorneys in the US who have any business defending a use of force case, I'd be amazed. When I answered a self-defense question in my first year criminal law class with an answer based on real knowledge, the professor looked at me like a chicken watching card tricks.

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NHI, 10-8.

I used to not carry pepper spray. Now I carry a small amount just for the option. There are still times where a firearm should be my first choice but with some of the smaller cans at least I have that choice.

Based on my LE experience, which may differ from other LEOs, herewith my thoughts.

To begin with, being in a Sheriff's Dept rather than a PD, we were solo and often distant from back up. So to make the generalization that when an LEO chooses to use gas, there is usually another LEO close by with gun drawn is conclusionary rather than factual. Not so in my field experience. When I was our patrol division commander (three stations) one of my responsibilities was to monitor all use of force incidents to make sure my troops were legal and in departmental compliance. I never read of such an incident. Often in (at this point in such an incident) deadly force was not yet legal, and the use of the gas was often followed by grappling. In this instance another LEO, in order to holster and secure a firearm, would take up critical time best used to subdue the offender(s).

Needless to say, we were not trained to have a back up LEO with firearm drawn, nor did CA POST so advocate, because it is not possible.

Without using much imagination, it is as easy to envision situations where OC would be justified, but deadly force would not be. I will be glad to supply examples of such if necessary.

When I was teaching the state mandated CCW course I did supply examples, but this of course was for non LEOs who may have not had such social experience. Since I taught this course in our church, we sold OC spray as part of our church fund raising. Since I took no money for my teaching, all in all it became a significant fund raiser for the church.

This class discussion led to a lot of OC being sold.

Teaching the CCW course in our church, under the protection of the first and second amendments, was an example of our constitution working as it should. I think the blindfolded lady holding the scales of justice would be proud. My students, a conservative population, even in CA, took pride in how the American system can work.

For myself, I carry OC along with Mr. Glock. If we are in the back country in my open Jeep Wrangler, I carry a canister of bear spray. From time to time there are instances of either pot growers or just opportunistic bullies looking to harass outnumbered people. We have no cell coverage, and too far from help anyway. I do have the pistol if I decide I need it. But I have never been one to get anywhere near the panic button. I figure with the quantity of OC in a bear canister, I could effectively stop such an attack. I would prefer to take my chances on that instead of just drawing my firearm before such would be justified (given CA PC #417, et al on brandishing, exhibiting, or presenting).

I have been retired for almost 30 years. In that time I almost drew my pistol just once in a situation in which I would have to intervene to protect an unknown-to-me third person. The arrival of San Francisco PD just prior to my announcing my presence and drawing ended that. I have never had, off duty as well as retired, any necessity to exhibit or use OC/tear gas.

So demonstrably I have never been one to initiate incidents by myself.

But I still feel the need to be prepared, and hope that never happens.

I got into my work ride once to discover the canister of OC on my visor had blown its top due to the heat. I don’t think I ever got it all out.

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Rule of law, not a man.

Yea, that stuff can sure linger in a closed space...

Larry

This is right on the money IMO. If I’m forced to defend myself to the point of using anything other than my hands, it’s not going to be with pepper spray.

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Some Might Say.

I EDC pepper spray, a knife, and a firearm. PLEASE do not take the foolish advice from others who are preaching the nonsense that a firearm or deadly force is always the answer. Taking advice chest thumper and tough talkers on the internet could land you in prison. We seen how that worked out with Sean Grayson.

I carry pepper spray because I like to have other non lethal or less lethal options to defend myself or to dissuade an attack that has not reach the threshold for lethal force. I also carry it to use on four legged animals like loose dogs that may approach me. I also like to have pepper spray for situations where I can't bring my firearm, and I am forced to leave it in my car. That's on school grounds, sporting events, post office, and places where they may have metal detectors.... It's just another, "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it," tool at your disposal.

As far as I know, pepper spray is legal to buy and carry in all 50 states. Naturally, there maybe some prohibited places, but I know of no states where it's outright banned....

No pepper spray here.

Shoot, with knife, keys, wallet, gun, phone and a spare mag I already have enuff stuff to keep track of

I carry bear spray in my vehicle along with a collapsible baton under the seat. May or may not be legal but I really don’t care.

They give me more options while I’m seat belted in my car.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Baton is an issue where I live. I have recommended to people to buy a "tire thumper" (marked as such) from an auto supply store.

When LE carries a baton, it's a compliance tool. When the general public carries one, it's a bludgeon. Usually, your state laws may vary. I believe various types of defensive sprays may be banned in several states, usual suspects as those despising armed citizens.

I have a set of keys for the fence and house on a key ring attached to OC. I use it almost exclusively when walking the dogs but I also carry a 296 in a fanny pack. I have had to pepper a couple of dogs in my running days. Circumstances dictate tactics.

With my medical status and the length of time it takes for dialysis every night, I do almost nothing but go to work and come home. With my limited exposure to most people, the odds of encounter are so slight I have much less risk than most others. We enjoyed the pandemic restrictions as neither my wife nor like people or being around them. Other than her, the only folks around here with whom I have contact are in my office.

The only other times I have encounters with random folks are walking the dogs. Rosie is very inclined to people. Ted is pretty good (he really likes other dogs), but few mess with a grumpy old man walking a Rottweiler. Both dogs are pretty happy to meet the young ladies at the college, and they don't present a threat.

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NHI, 10-8.

I never carry spray. While I do believe their may well be situations where that would suffice, most of those situations could quickly turn into ones where more powerful form of defense would be necessary. I do not want to kill or injure anyone or even a dog. But, I can't, won't and am not required to be prepared for every means and situation where I need to defend myself. Nobody is.

Plus, Here is a concern. If I am carry both gun and spray and a situation occurs and I feel the need to use my gun instead of the spray, there is a very good chance that some prosecutor who was not on the scene, was not feeling or seeing just what I did will make the call that I could have ended the problem with the spray and not the gun. I will have very little time to make my decision and there is all the time in the world to analyze and second guess it. There will be plenty of that without the why didn't you use the spray questions. Plus, if it goes to trial, criminal or civil it will be one more question or possibility posed to the jury. Ladies and gentlemen he had the ability to end the situation by choosing to incapacity the assailant with peeper spray yet he chose to end his life using a gun. The prosecution isn't going to bring up the direction the wind was blowing, that if it didn't work I would be out of time and screwed when he makes this kind of statement during closing arguements Every single bit of possible mud gets thrown up in hopes that some sticks

LEOs are constantly being 2nd guessed in this manner, but, most of them will get far more benefit of the doubt by the prosecutors than civilians

Another thing is that although at one time stuff like pepper spray only seriously sucked, I now have to carry a whiffer because if I suck down just a tiny bit of the wrong stuff my airway shuts off and I have to struggle to just to breath. A whiff of pepper spray would probably knock me out.

FOX Labs . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

In NC:


§ 14-401.6. Unlawful to possess, etc., tear gas except for certain purposes.

(a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, corporation or association to possess, use, store, sell, or transport within the State of North Carolina, any form of that type of gas generally known as "tear gas," or any container or device for holding or releasing that gas; except this section does not apply to the possession, use, storage, sale or transportation of that gas or any container or device for holding or releasing that gas:
(1) By officers and enlisted personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States or this State while in the discharge of their official duties and acting under orders requiring them to carry arms or weapons;
(2) By or for any governmental agency for official use of the agency;
(3) By or for county, municipal or State law-enforcement officers in the discharge of their official duties;
(4) By or for security guards registered under Chapter 74C of the General Statutes, company police officers commissioned under Chapter 74E of the General Statutes, or campus police officers commissioned under Chapter 74G of the General Statutes provided they are on duty and have received training according to standards prescribed by the State Bureau of Investigation;
(5) For bona fide scientific, educational, or industrial purposes;
(6) In safes, vaults, and depositories, as a means or protection against robbery;
(7) For use in the home for protection and elsewhere by individuals, who have not been convicted of a felony, for self-defense purposes only, as long as the capacity of any:
a. Tear gas device or container does not exceed 150 cubic centimeters,
b. Tear gas cartridge or shell does not exceed 50 cubic centimeters, and
c. Tear gas device or container does not have the capability of discharging any cartridge, shell, or container larger than 50 cubic centimeters.
(b) Violation of this section is a Class 2 misdemeanor.
(c) Tear gas for the purpose of this section shall mean any solid, liquid or gaseous substance or combinations thereof which will, upon dispersion in the atmosphere, cause tears in the eyes, burning of the skin, coughing, difficulty in breathing or any one or more of these reactions and which will not cause permanent damage to the human body, and the substance and container or device is designed, manufactured, and intended to be used as tear gas. (1951, c. 592; 1969, c. 1224, s. 8; 1977, c. 126; 1979, c. 661; 1983, c. 794, s. 9; 1991 (Reg. Sess., 1992), c. 1043, s. 2; 1993, c. 151, s. 1; c. 539, s. 276; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2005-231, s. 10; 2011-183, s. 12.)

Statute: G.S. 14-401.6

There is nothing wrong with carrying OC spray (or 9mm handguns.) As with anything, one should be aware of all the laws in one's area regarding their use. There are times I carry pepper spray in addition to a handgun, mostly for stray dogs. In those instances I like the options it gives me. However, as a police officer(now retired) we were trained relentlessly with it. We were drilled on when and where pepper spray fit in the force continuum in our annual in service training. We had departmental policies on it's use, the same as with all weapons issued. Most people that buy pepper spray and carry it have no idea of it's proper use or effects. If you can't afford training for pepper spray from a reliable and knowledgeable instructor, at least read up on it. Practice deploying it like your firearm. Knowledge beforehand on the tactical use and circumstances prevent the indecision you might have when the time comes. It also helps in articulating your actions to the police. The bottom line is that if you buy pepper spray, throw it in your pocket and have no idea of when or how you are going to use it you are more likely to have problems. If you are educated or trained on the abilities and limitations of pepper spray, then YOU can decide if it fits into your self defense plan.

If interested in Pepper Spray, I would advise looking at Fox Labs.

Pepper Spray is not a standardized product. The sprays Scoville Heat rating is a key to how well it will or will not work. MANY sprays have some pepper in them and call themselves pepper spray. The heat rating and percentage of the product that has the heat rating determines if it will work.

You and I could be sprayed with some brands and still run away. Or, still fight. A product such as Fox Labs being one of the highest Scoville heat rating products will affect the eyes and breathing of persons who have no awareness of pain.

A stream is my preferred spray pattern as it is LESS affected by wind. A fogging spray is good but can blow back on you. As PIWO says, getting training will be helpful and better ensure you pick the best for your needs.

As an NC resident I was going to post this. You’ll find pepper spray for sale all over the place in gun shops, sporting goods stores and department stores. Unfortunately I don’t think most of the NC residents buying it realize it’s only legal for use “in the home for protection and elsewhere” or more importantly the 150 cc size limit, and what that equates to in ounces.

For example a 7.9 oz canister of bear spray is 233 cc, 8.1 oz is 240 cc, 9.2 oz in 272 cc and 10.2 oz is 301 cc. In short anything over 5.1 oz technically isn’t legal in NC. Yet you can find those larger sizes of bear spray in pretty much any REI or Great Outdoors store in NC.

I’m noticed a similar phenomenon in VA where spring assisted opening knives like the Kershaw Leak are not legal, but are openly sold all over the state in stores like Walmart.

Now…realistically it also isn’t something that law enforcement is probably ever going to show any interest in, unless and until you come to their attention for something else - like using a prohibited item for self defense against a 2 legged rather than 4 legged assailant.

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Another consideration is that in many states a concealed carry permit only applies to a handgun and not to anything else considered to be a “weapon”.

Check your state laws carefully before deciding to carry a collapsible baton, pepper spray or any knife large than what can be argued to be a pocket knife. Even then a small fixed blade knife might still be regarded as a concealed weapon.

That is not a bad law. Anyone not convicted of a felony can carry up to 5 ounces in the home or elsewhere for protection purposes specifically self defense. I find anything over 4 ounces is hard to casually carry. A 4 ounce spray takes several seconds to empty.

And the devices besides a handheld spray can seem to be more limited.

I've never carried pepper spray and frankly I especially wouldn't now.

A few months back my brother had to use pepper spray against a couple of dogs, and he ended up getting some of the stuff directly in his eyes when one of the dogs tried to shake it off. According to him, it burned like heck and made him cough/wheeze, but he was able to make his way back inside, up the stairs, and into the shower where he successfully flushed it out. His eyes were sore/irritated for the rest of the day, but at no point was he truly incapacitated by it.

Now granted, this stuff was formulated for dogs, so maybe the stuff made for humans is more potent, but either way, that doesn't inspire confidence in me that pepper spray is effective at stopping a thread, and frankly, I feel like if you're facing a threat which is serious enough to use pepper spray, then you're facing a threat serious enough to warrant drawing a pistol.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Interesting discussion.

I gave my daughter pepper spray when she went to college in Boston. I forget the context, but a police officer told her she had to have a permit to carry it.

I can visualize scenarios where pepper spray used as a threat might avoid brandishing a firearm. The argument about time wasted if your judgement was off and you really needed to draw your weapon is valid. However, there could be a situation where pepper spray gave you an “out” from a worse confrontation.

I have since changed my mind on this. Someone close to me uses pepper spray as a non-lethal option before use of a firearm. While there ARE situations where I would go straight to my sidearm, I can see now where there might be situations where a small OC canister could be the best option. I'll be carrying a small 1.5 oz can of a type I trust going forward.

The Use of Force Continuum is available online in various iterations. They all accomplish pretty much the same thing, which is to articulate "probable excessive force" and "probable ineffective force." One important difference is that the police generally do not retreat whereas the citizen is expected to avoid low level confrontations and just walk away, if possible. Serious bodily injury and loss of life are the threshold for the use of deadly force whether you're wearing a badge or not. Anybody can be put into a situation where you have a split second to decide whether to shoot or not to shoot.

I will say that my own experiences with pepper spray have been negative and I don't trust it. And dangerous dogs are not to be taken lightly and can be a very serious threat.

The reason most academies spray cadets before they are allowed to carry pepper spray is twofold: 1) If you ever use it you will also get a dose and need to know what to expect, and; 2) it is hilarious from an instructors point of view. I never missed a chance to watch.

When I went through FBI firearms instructor school there was an active duty Navy Seal in the class. Why, I don’t know. There was nothing we G-Nerds could teach him he didn’t already know. They decided to spray us even though all of us had been sprayed before (see Reason 2 above). He got his before I got mine, so I was able to witness it. He took a full dose in the face, winced a little, pried his eyelids open and told the instructor: I could kill you right now.

I’m not sure if he meant it like: Your puny seasoning spray did not affect my ability to make mayhem in the least or; I’m gonna get you for this.

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Rule of law, not a man.

Carried "Mace" (CN) for many years, our department did not allow OC. used the CN a few times and was never all that impressed. Flashlight, baton, radio and jack was much more effective. Always heard how bad the OC version is.

Then I'm the sergeant assigned to Planning and Training. Off I go to Fort Dix for the FBI's Chemical Agents Instructors School. We get gassed once a day for a week by various types of tear gas.

CN, CS, OC and a mix of CS & OC. Canister, grenade, 40mm launchers and gas house. I never bothered carrying gas again. A blackjack works on everybody, OC is so so. Depends on how high the person is or how many times they've been exposed to gas.

I'm not saying you shouldn't carry it. Just don't expect miracles. There are exceptions. Do you feel lucky?

My daily carry consists of a small revolver, speed strip, and a small can of OC or a sap.

Being an average small town fella not inclined towards trouble, I'm really a believer in having something intermediate on hand. Being trained and certified as LE is likely to help in an off duty confrontation, especially if it is a previous client. I don't necessarily count on it though.

I guess the question is, can you reasonably elucidate your choices and actions?

Anyone who really understands OC realizes it has caveats. Wind direction, rain, ambient temperature, and the ever present variable of individual tolerance. Generally, it affects everyone...eventually. Most everyone in my academy took a good 30 seconds to a minute to feel any appreciable effects. I don't need to explain that can be an eternity when stuff is going down. Now, most of us run into a cloud of it, wince, cough, and curse, then get on with business. Here's a consideration. LEO learns to work through it. Know who else does? Troublemakers in prison who consquently get sprayed alot. Honestly, if I ever spray someone off duty, I'm fully expecting to go hands on. It might work in that time span, or it might not. If nothing else, I at least I have the comfort of knowing they'll be cooking nicely while the street cops sort things out.

It is also my considered opinion that any time OC is deployed it is a serving of a.....fecal sandwich, which everyone gets a bite of. The goal is to make the other guy take a bigger bite than you.

On that note...the sap. It is legal to carry in my home state. It becomes deadly force when used above the shoulders, it remains intermediate on torso and limbs. While I am used to OC and it's caveats, my family is not. My wife has severe asthma. I don't want to use OC in or near my car where I may have to drive quickly. Therefore, I do believe the sap becomes a viable option in my world.

Being a new age Peace Officer, I've never struck anyone with a sap unless training, but I have developed a confidence in them through that training.

It could be that I ain't well wired, but I asked my wife to go at me with a sap like she meant it. Maybe I'd left socks on the floor or the toilet seat up that day, but boy howdy! She sure delivered...thus, I am a believer.

I've used OC on several aggressive dogs. It has honestly never been that impressive, but we did make our escape. It didn't have a dramatic effect as much as the dogs seeming to casually decide we weren't worth the effort.

At the end of the day, I feel I can elucidate that I'm an aging, broken down fella, And a far cry from Chuck Norris, therefore i can justify an intermediate weapon. Should I need my firearm in a lethal encounter, I would expect to elucidate that I was scared for my life right then...not a minute or so in the future.

On OC, cone vs stream is the never ending debate. In my part of the world, we all hate foam and gel, but it's what we have to use in a hospital setting.

Best spray I've found is Phantom OC from Sabre. It's the same million SHU as any other Sabre spray, but much finer with a much more immediate effect.

I've enjoyed the many different shared perspectives here. Always something interesting to consider.