What Lessons Could an Armed Citizen Learn Here?
- Thread starter biku324
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Doug M.
Member
I can think of nothing about such a fact pattern that would get me involved in a property crime. I'm old and retired and know how to give a statement and testify. On the other hand, if I were a witness to a cop losing a fight, I would find a probably non-lethal means of interfering if at all possible.
fatcat3
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So what is your magic number? $100? $1500? This clown wasn't shot over $3. He broke the law, refused to comply, resisted arrest, was attempting to take away the officer's equipment, and got shot for his trouble. Cry me a river.
As for egos I'll bet a dollar to a GD doughnut that the criminals ego told told him he was right in doing all of the above.
Know your local prosecutor.
The real crime is bringing this case to trial. The jury members' decision is shameful.
The real crime is bringing this case to trial. The jury members' decision is shameful.
OP
The case was a hot potato; it went to the AG and the Law Enforcement Academy Board before prosecution. The local prosecutor didn't make the decision without consultation.
Another thing that matters is that if you're the defendant, you hire the right 'expert witness.' Lots of people are available; the one the defense used here had to admit in front of the jury that he had no tazer certification on the weapon in contention. Oops.
Another thing that matters is that if you're the defendant, you hire the right 'expert witness.' Lots of people are available; the one the defense used here had to admit in front of the jury that he had no tazer certification on the weapon in contention. Oops.
The lesson is...think twice, thrice, before embarking on a career where split nano second decisions under highly stressful circumstances are not backed up by a reasonable benefit of the doubt.
Now with that said...had this been about an innocent driver being creamed on the roadway because a cop was chasing and pitting someone who ran from a traffic violation...I would say throw away the key.
Now with that said...had this been about an innocent driver being creamed on the roadway because a cop was chasing and pitting someone who ran from a traffic violation...I would say throw away the key.
Even if the arrest was uneventful, the guy would've been out in a few hours thanks to NM bail reform. Other than paperwork, nothing was going to happen, that's the reality.
So, yeah, both lives were/are destroyed over $3.
Then, with no qualified immunity... Was it worth it for either the shooter and the shot? All over $3.
It doesn't, and it didn't. What got him dragged out of the car was his refusal to cooperate with a completely legal and reasonable request from the cop that he step out. HE is the one who escalated the level of confrontation, by refusing to alight from the vehicle.
Shibadog
Member
No matter the history though-you physically resist a cop doing his job you should expect a bad outcome
Did this get a lot of negative media attention and politician commentary prior to trial?
The prosecutor going to the AG and Academy Board smells much like the agenda or political game book used to move against the four Minneapolis officers who were tried in the press, abandoned and betrayed by the department brass, and lost their freedom too.
OP
I never heard anything about it until last week.
stanmerrell
Member
When we stop enforcing minor laws this is what we get. Perps that fight the police and homeless dopers. You have to enforce the laws, even minor ones, or else the bad guys become emboldened. If you prosecute and jail for misdemeanors, criminals move on to a local with lower enforcement standards. Look at San Francisco.
I live in ABQ, the local media talked about it for a day or two, gave an occasional update and now this.
I have no idea how Las Cruces media covered it.
Doug M.
Member
FWIW, in 2013, in an event about which I posted here, I had occasion to call 911 while walking the dogs. An officer made contact with a person at a corner up the street from where we were. I could tell things were going stupid, so I crossed the street away from the incident. I was less likely to be in the way but could watch better. Mr. Bad Guy broke and ran the other way (I do not look welcoming, and I had Bozo, 125 pounds of Rott X Fila and Mya, a Tervuren, both of whom were very protective; I would have unmuzzled Bozo if needed). I went a direction that allowed me to somewhat follow in case they came out of the yards. I called 911 (I use an earpiece when in public) and gave the best description I could (officer in a fight at ...). That flooded the area with cops. I was not going to get others involved unless needed. I did yell a cop phrase a couple times to check on him so the officer would know I had some background in checking his well-being. I would not have intervened otherwise unless I had reason to think he was losing.
Admittedly, where I live and work, especially at that time, an injured/dead offender would not have cause the angst it does now.
Admittedly, where I live and work, especially at that time, an injured/dead offender would not have cause the angst it does now.
Jack Flash
SWCA Member
"After being unable to verify Eze’s identity, Lunsford and officer Keegan Arbogast forcibly removed Eze from the vehicle to arrest him."
For those who say "give him a ticket and send him on his way":
What name goes on the ticket?
If he said
"I'm Joe Blow, and I come from Kokomo. Nah, I don't have any ID on me."
Would you take that at face value?
For those who say "give him a ticket and send him on his way":
What name goes on the ticket?
If he said
"I'm Joe Blow, and I come from Kokomo. Nah, I don't have any ID on me."
Would you take that at face value?
Lets look at the facts:
the crime is a stolen $3 beer,
there's no qualified immunity in NM,
the guy will be let out before the paper work is done with NM's bail reform,
there's a good chance that the blue state .gov will hang you out to dry if you get the smallest detail wrong,
Is it worth it?
the crime is a stolen $3 beer,
there's no qualified immunity in NM,
the guy will be let out before the paper work is done with NM's bail reform,
there's a good chance that the blue state .gov will hang you out to dry if you get the smallest detail wrong,
Is it worth it?
lawandorder
Member
There are a lot of agencies at the local, state, and even federal level who have programs that are essentially citizens academies that introduce folks to their LE agency, what the agency does and how it does it.
People learn a lot about law enforcement and unlearn a lot of what, Hollywood, Television & Social media have taught them which is not true.
If your community has one, sign up. You would be amazed at the different perspective you come away with. Heck you might just enjoy it.
People learn a lot about law enforcement and unlearn a lot of what, Hollywood, Television & Social media have taught them which is not true.
If your community has one, sign up. You would be amazed at the different perspective you come away with. Heck you might just enjoy it.
You can't just look at the story and the verdict and make any conclusions on further use of force. There is much at play in court cases that most people don't understand and never get to see.
There is political pressure. Did the judge instruct correctly and manage the court properly? Then there's the makeup of the jury. How good was the defense lawyer? Were the witnesses honest? Medical examiner honest?
There is political pressure. Did the judge instruct correctly and manage the court properly? Then there's the makeup of the jury. How good was the defense lawyer? Were the witnesses honest? Medical examiner honest?
It’s too difficult to make a determination from the video but I would not want to be a cop today. I see too many local prosecutors want to move up to the governor’s mansion by making a name for themselves prosecuting cops.
Doug M.
Member
One must recall that a direction to exit the vehicle is not a request. It is a lawful order. The SCOTUS case law (Mimms et al.) is clear and not open to debate. Immediate compliance is a mandate, not a suggestion; cops are in charge of encounters and any failure to comply immediately is obstructing (or whatever your state calls it), and any actual resistance is usually a different crime (it was in the two states in which I worked (Illinois and WA; I think CA uses the same statute for both). Actual force used against an officer is a felony. My office files those without fail as far I know. The more time criminals spend in custody, the better off the rest of us are.
The mere fact that the lunatic fringe along the "Idiocracy of the I5 Corridor" (tm, me) has worked to turn the Constitution on its head because of the knowingly fabricated stories about George Floyd and Eric Garner is a shame and causes lot more mischief than any theoretical good. Any LE agency that has policies more stringent the Constitutional standard unless forced by state law (like here) is wrong, and the drafters thereof should be fired and decertified with alacrity.
The mere fact that the lunatic fringe along the "Idiocracy of the I5 Corridor" (tm, me) has worked to turn the Constitution on its head because of the knowingly fabricated stories about George Floyd and Eric Garner is a shame and causes lot more mischief than any theoretical good. Any LE agency that has policies more stringent the Constitutional standard unless forced by state law (like here) is wrong, and the drafters thereof should be fired and decertified with alacrity.
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