The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight

One of my partners back in the early 80's carried a S&W M59. I got to asking him questions about it and he pulled it out of the holster (we were in the office doing some paperwork near the end of our shift) and handed it to me.

I unloaded it and noticed the magazine wasn't full. I unloaded the magazine and found it had 5 rounds in it. Five in the magazine and one in the chamber for a total of 6 rounds. I asked about spare magazines and he told me he didn't need one. I asked why only six rounds and no spare mags. His reply was, "The FBI summary of Police Officers Killed each year says the average rounds fired in a gunfight is 2 to 3 rounds. I've got twice that. Why would I need more?" I asked him if he understood what an average was and how you calculate "average". He told me he knew all that stuff. I left it alone at that.

The full story was the six rounds were a mix of hollow points and FMJ. US made hollow points. Foreign military surplus FMJ. Different brands/headstamps. I asked about that and was told the hollow points were for people and the FMJ for shooting through cars. I didn't try to understand how he was going to shoot the appropriate round at the appropriate target as he emptied the six rounds.

Statistics and averages are okay and even interesting sometimes. But I like to be prepared for more. Capable of more.
 
A lot of good takeaways from this.
Be careful about oversimplification about the distances. A "typical" gunfight takes place at three yards and then at five yards and then at 20 yards and ends at any other distance and you may be still shooting long after it is "over".

The heroic action of an armed defender at the Greenwood Mall in Indiana did not "take place" at 40 yards!
It did because he fired his first shots at that distance. BUT!
Then it was at 20 yards.
Then it was at 5 yards as he moved in.
Dicken stopped firing when he got to contact range.
Which of those ranges do you pick for the range of that combat?
We pick 40 yards because it makes a good story.

Noticing that the gunfights averaged out to some distance is a minor insignificant detail. What we really need to know is what Tom Givens is teaching and whether those teachings actually contributed to victory.

A gunfight is more fight than gun!
 
MSD2343 said:
Some departments actually forbid their officers from attending outside training. I know that such is the case with the Chicago Police Department.
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This kind of make sense in a twisted sort of way. Most laws, rules and policy are written by someone that has no clue about what the a talking about except how to limit the liability of the Gov./Agency. We can't have heretics running around learning unapproved doctrine.
 
MSD2343 said:
Some departments actually forbid their officers from attending outside training. I know that such is the case with the Chicago Police Department.
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The flip side of that is that a lot of officers feel that if their department wants them to be better trained at something, the department will provide the training and pay them to attend. The ones who do attend outside training usually do so on their own time and their own dime.
 
fatcat3 said:
This kind of make sense in a twisted sort of way. Most laws, rules and policy are written by someone that has no clue about what the a talking about except how to limit the liability of the Gov./Agency. We can't have heretics running around learning unapproved doctrine.
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A lot of Agencies bring in outside trainers for "uniform" and documented training.
 
On the one hand 67 people is probably statistically insignificant. On the other hand, apparently 67 people is the database that we have.

One thing that I think people are overlooking from this article is it Givens also said that something like 85% of the 67 had their gunfight in a transitional space, usually a parking lot, and it was between the hours of 6:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m. which he defined "As the hours of Darkness".
 
I was involved in the aftermath of a gunfight involving two gentlemen in a garage, both using sawed off M97 Winchester shotguns. One used birdshot and one used buck. Two rounds were fired by the assailant to breach the garage owner’s door, then the total gunfight amounted to three rounds. The first shot by the garage owner was birdshot. He missed. Distance was about 15 feet. The second shot was a center mass hit by the assailant at a distance of 18 feet. The third was a “finishing” shot at a distance of about 6 inches. Pretty typical numbers for a gunfight. Lotta lessons in this one.
 
I'd disagree with the article's assertion that LE off-duty shootings are more like armed citizen shootings. Officers armed off-duty may or may not have departmental regulations that require or encourage them to take action to interrupt violent acts when possible. That's much different than defending yourself against personal victimization.

I saw several folks with optical sights on their sidearms at CCL re-qualifications several days ago and was mostly unimpressed by their weapon-handling and/or shooting skills. A concealed handgun should be a simple, manageable, reliable tool. You should develop the skill to proficiently use that tool.
 
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Wyo said:
I was involved in the aftermath of a gunfight involving two gentlemen in a garage, both using sawed off M97 Winchester shotguns. One used birdshot and one used buck. Two rounds were fired by the assailant to breach the garage owner’s door, then the total gunfight amounted to three rounds. The first shot by the garage owner was birdshot. He missed. Distance was about 15 feet. The second shot was a center mass hit by the assailant at a distance of 18 feet. The third was a “finishing” shot at a distance of about 6 inches. Pretty typical numbers for a gunfight. Lotta lessons in this one.
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Foremost among them, don’t miss.
 
biku324 said:
I saw several folks with optical sights on their sidearms at CCL re-qualifications several days ago and was mostly unimpressed by their weapon-handling and/or shooting skills. A concealed handgun should be a simple, manageable, reliable tool. You should develop the skill to proficiently use that tool.
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There's a trend toward using red dot sights on defensive pistols. I switched over one of my guns, a Beretta PX4, to a red dot and it does help with accuracy if you train with it. OTOH, if you don't train with it you'll be pretty unimpressive.

At 73, I've decided to stick with irons since I can still see them and have 40+ years experience using them.
 
Of all the reasons to carry when you leave your home you will be returning, I had the misfortune of coming home after a burglary and going into the house was an experience, I went to where my guns were and some were gone. I got a single barrel shotgun and searched the rest of the house and the bad guys were gone. If for no other reason that’s a good one for being armed.
 
biku324 said:
I'd disagree with the article's assertion that LE off-duty shootings are more like armed citizen shootings. Officers armed off-duty may or may not have departmental regulations that require or encourage them to take action to interrupt violent acts when possible. That's much different than defending yourself against personal victimization.

I saw several folks with optical sights on their sidearms at CCL re-qualifications several days ago and was mostly unimpressed by their weapon-handling and/or shooting skills. A concealed handgun should be a simple, manageable, reliable tool. You should develop the skill to proficiently use that tool.
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All good points. I'd like to expand on that.

There are respondents who have received minimal concealed carry instruction regarding deadly confrontations and justifiable homicide. The rest of their "continuing education" has been based on YouDupe aces, other Internet maestros, games (?), maybe a week in a gunfighting school, reading the works of alleged experts, and/or reviewing surveys of questionable worth.

Many of these same ill-prepared respondents then boast to others exactly what they will do in a life-threatening situation, armed with so much erroneous confidence one would assume they had the script prior to the incident.

While law enforcement personnel aren't flawless, many of them have a huge and distinct advantage over civilian carriers. Aside from extensive classroom study, range work, and field training, they have practical street experience, maybe many years of it.

Such experience is something few outside of law enforcement possess. They have a well-developed sense of criminal behavior. They make observations that few civilians have knowledge of. This knowledge instills in them an innate sense of impending danger that less trained and and less experienced persons may never perceive, let alone act upon quickly.

The incredible speed at which a deadly confrontation occurs is almost unbelievable. Equal to that is the highly unpredictable behavior of criminals.

Because a person is all consumed ("eaten up") with gunfighting and statistics doesn't mean that person is even remotely prepared for anything. These same imitation stakeouters try to mesh law enforcement theory and practice with civilian carry. That's a mistake. Keep civilian carry civilian carry.
 
Our Police Dept put on a "Civilian Police Academy" for PR

One of eight classes was a computerized simulation shoot no shoot.... everyone got a different situation to address........ 25-30 students each with a different situation to respond to........ of the class only one aced the scenario they had to address. "moi" I fired 5 rounds at two "perps" 5hits two dead perps. ranges were about 20ft across a pickup truck and 3-4 ft!

IIRC about half the class had concealed carry permits. Many just froze or made bad decisions or had slow OODA loops
 
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Muss Muggins said:
I think it’s silly to compare officer involved shootings to civilian involved self defense shootings. And how many of Givern’s students were also LEO? No relevance . . .
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So the officer is off duty, in plains clothes, driving his old pickup truck. Just like bubba. So what are you talking about?

A shootout at a restaurant is a shootout at a restaurant.

Anyone can take a class. Have you been to Thunder Ranch, Gunsite Academy or similar Professional Training?
 
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