I went to the movies with the guys in the family last night.. of course we saw James Bond's new movie Skyfall. I Loved it.
But.. Bond's Walther 380 (Actually correctly identified by Q as a 9mm short) had a bio-metric set of grips that allowed only him to be able to fire it. Of course that feature came in handy later..whas there ever a doubt?
What I want to know is when & where can I order mine fron S&W?

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

Great idea until you get shot in your strong side and have to switch to the hand who's geometry isn't programmed to the gun.

CLICK....CLICK.....CLICK.....

Bond has stepped up in caliber. In the books and the early movies, he had a PPK in 7.65mm (.32ACP). (After, "Dr. No", published in 1958. Prior to that, he used a Beretta M-318 .25 and a Colt DS)

I once asked the real Geoffrey Boothroyd (the Maj. Boothroyd in "Dr. No" was based on him) about the caliber issue, thinking that .380 might have an edge. He thought that neither was very different in real world results, and that with either, exact placement was crucial. I suspect that he was right, but 7.65mm case rims vary some with manufacturer and some feed better in Walthers than others.

I read an article by a German writer who revealed that in German police service, the PP and PPK failed to function on an average of once in 50 shots fired. That may have been almost as great an issue as needing more power when they transitioned to 9mm's in the 1970's, after terrorist activity saw a rise in the need to use handguns more often.

Boothroyd agreed with me that J-frame S&W .38's were much more reliable, but Fleming preferred small autos, probably because he was very concerned with concealibility.
He carried a Baby Browning .25 while a Royal Navy Intelliigence officer. He personally owned larger guns, and had Bond use a "long-barrelled Colt .45" that he kept in a hiding place in his car. He never said if it was a .45 auto or one like his own New Service revolver. He displayed the latter in an article about him in, "Life".

Ian Fleming is sometimes criticized for not being terribly gun-knowledgeable, which is why he conferred with Boothroyd, a gun writer and one of the best all-round authorities on fireams, ever. But Fleming was one of the very few authors who actually owned and shot handguns. He had carried one in harm's way. Compared to most writers, he did indeed know more than average. The only ones who seemed to know more were Donald Hamilton and Robt. B. Parker (in his later books.) I think Parker had a concealed carry license in Massachusetts.

Peter O'Donnell did very well with guns in his Modesty Blaise series, which I loved. But I think he may have just researched guns, not owning any. He was once a British Army intelligence NCO, so would have known the arms used in WW II and soon after. He got the idea for Blaise from a refugee girl he met in the Middle East. He certainly knew how to speed-fire an SMLE, which he had Modesty do on occasion. But he had her shoot one thug at just 20 yards with an S&W .41 Magnum, and seemed to think that was long range for a revolver! Maybe the publisher dropped a digit. He may have meant 200 yards.

LOL, he probably did mean 20 yards. At my local range, I'm usually the only one with a target at 25 yards. Seems like the most popular distance is 7 yards and even at that range most targets look like somebody's patterning a cylinder-choked shotgun at 50 yards.

Chuck--

Boy, ain't that the truth! I'm sometimes amazed at the groups that some post on boards like this one, too.

Most of these people never read or heard of Elmer Keith or Jeff Cooper or anyone else who wrote about long range handgunning. Even the old FBI Practical Pistol Course used to run to 50 yards. I understand that many police now don't practice beyond 15 yards!

But Modesty Blaise was supposed to be a really hot handgun shot. Used rifles, too, on occasion, including AR-15's and SMLE's. And she had a skeet or pigeon range on her estate at Benildon. She also lived most of the time in a London penthouse. But I think she practiced while there at her pal Willie Garvin's pub on the Thames, where he had a sound-proofed range and karate studio, etc. Modesty was also deadly with a kongo stick (yawara?) and her bare hands.

Search her on the Net, and you can see her in both the novels and the comic strip that ran in about 57 countries.

Bond is a pretty slick character, but he doesn't score many cool points for his choice of calibers. Just sayin'...

If they ever come up with a feature like that, I'm sure they'll encode both hands!

The US federal government granted $2 million in 2006 to the New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT) for the development of the first “Smart Gun” with Dynamic Grip Recognition technology: a gun with a biometric locking mechanism that will only work with one owner.

Some of my thoughts:

What if you are in a life-&-death struggle and the grip you normally use .....that works so well in a perfect SmartGun...suddenly makes you look different so the gun locks YOU out. Sweat, blood, etc could cause issues also.

The military and law enforcement has all said no thanks when this technology 1st started. I wonder how many LEOs have been killed with their own guns over the years? My life (and my family's) is just as important so if it isn't good enough for them then I don't want it either.

With all the stupid, lawsuit driven changes to many modern guns (loaded chamber indicator, magazine disconnect, built-in gun locks, etc)...adding another complex safety feature like the biometric sensor....could cause the gun to fail at the time you need it most.

Oh yeah....gloves are out.

This thread needs pictures. PPK's are not hard to find, but the proper Beretta on the other hand....



My understanding was that Bond's gun was in fact a 418, which is what my gun pictured above is. My info from:

http://jamesbond.ajb007.co.uk/handguns-of-james-bond/

On the otherhand, I never spoke to Mr. Boothroyd.

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Dave

Actually, Q identified the weapon in Skyfall as a PPK/S.

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Where's my dad's America?

I will toss in a picture or two.

A 1939-40 Walther PPK brought back by my Uncle Jack...returning from WWII. He left it to me along with several Nazi memorabilia.

I do own the book of Boothroyd "The Handgun" I envy Texas Star that he spoke to this good man. I love his book.

Another case of research, I read one of his books where the commentary on a pistol was taken directly from a G&A magazine of a year or so earlier.
Geoff
Who didn't have an internet to brag on the catch back then.

Theur-

I didn't actually speak to him. We exchanged letters. I have one which he wrote on stationery from the movie set of, "Dr. No." I may auction it someday. Need to figure out what to hope for, pricewise.

I think, "The Handgun" is probably the best single work on its subject, although it covered guns only to about 1970. But I know of nothing else that takes the reader so well from the beginnings to that date.

more likely the problem would arise if you didn't have a "proper" grip on the gun.

ps. in the books, Bond's 25 got snagged in his holster and got him shot. That is why he was forced to switch. Scaramonga's "Golden Gun" was a pimped out 45 LC revolver. I'm pretty sure a peacemaker.

I was trying to figure out what about gloves? Bond wears them a couple of times in this picture, and would have to ditch them to use the pistol.
Just sayin.
Also: I like Daniel Craig, but we REALLY need to talk about tossing nice guns around like that.

Did you pick up on the crazy priest in, "Dragon's Claw", who was a gunslinger, keeping a supply of that magazine hidden under his bed as a youth? That tipped me off that O'Donnell was probably doing most of his research in that title. But I learned a lot that way, too, so can't really fault him, although I think he should have shot more, too.

It is telling that he thought that the man had to conceal the magazines. But perhaps the guy's mother was virulently anti-gun, and firearms were not a tolerated interest.

Yeah, he had gold-plated Colt SAA's, used at one time in a circus act. But the guy was named Scaramanga, not Scaramonga. I first read it in an excerpt in, "Playboy", about the time the book appeared. Needless to say, I headed for the bookstore soon after. The "Playboy" art was of the wounded Scaramanga eating a snake about the time that Bond found him, I think. The magazine excerpted several of the Bond books.

What a superb photo! Thanks! I based my 318 comment on Bond having told M that he'd used the Beretta .25 for 15 years, and this was in 1958. I think the 418 was introduced about 1949, if I recall correctly from J.B. Wood's Beretta book. We discussed this on the Beretta forum, and concluded that it had to be a 318. But the guns are very similar. Later 418's had a different grip safety.

As I noted in my post to Theur, I didn't speak to Boothroyd; we exchanged letters. I regret never having met him. But I have been fortunate to meet in person many other gun writers. Mostly, they were nice guys, and some were pretty funny, too. A few were stuck-up peacocks, and I think one really enjoyed killing people and animals. He was cordial to me, though.

One that I wanted to meet and never did was Jack O'Connor. But I've kept some of his letters and still enjoy reading them occasionally.

I was myself a gun writer for some 30 years, so it was easy to meet others at press functions and at the SHOT show and NRA conventions. I mention this because I had a PM from a member who seems suspicious that I could have known Boothroyd. But I'm not far from 70 now, as shocking as it seems, and I wrote to him while just out of high school. I started reading the Bond books wheh I was 14 or 15. I also read the "Life" feature on Fleming and read Boothroyd's interesting account in, "Sports Ill." about his acquaintance with Fleming. If your library keeps that title on file, his story was in the March or April issues of 1962, I think. Mar. 19 rings a bell, but I think it's one month or the other. Some libraries have the title on film or on microfiche.

BTW, I wrote to Ian Fleming, suggesting that Bond use a S&W M-36 with three-inch barrel and a Gaylord holster. I drew a picture of the holster, coloring it with art pencils. I received a very nice reply from his secretary telling me that Fleming was away, but that she would show him my letter on his return. Never heard from him but he must have had enormous amounts of mail to deal with.

Boothroyd told me that Fleming had gotten mail from people who thought that Bond should have guns like cap and ball Remington .44's!

Back to Beretta .25's: Aline, Countess of Ramonones, wrote in her autobiographical book, "The Spy Wore Red" that she was issued a Beretta .25 when an OSS agent in Madrid in WW II. She used it to kill a gypsy who came at her with a knife. This author was a US citizen who married the Count and became a Spaniard, but who continued to work for the CIA for some years after the war. She wrote several books about her experiences.

S&W and Walther are DIVORCING.
3 AGREEMENTS INVOLVED.
The first agreement concerning the distribution of
imported Walthers ends April 2013, two other
agreements run longer before their end.

Lower profit margins, let alone splitting it may be
the cause along the S&W Shield market popularity.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Distribution will be handled by a newly formed business entity, but according to the report I read S&W will continue to manufacture the PPK (and, I presume, the PPK/S) for that new company. Looks like Walther imports will not be handled by S&W, but that's about it.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Seems to me that changes won't matter much to anyone except accountants.

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David Wilson

Wow I had no idea I would get this response. My comment about procuring a bio-metric pistol was "tongue in cheek".
I did know that Bond has changed to the higher caliber 380 auto along the way but never did I think there would so much detailed info on the subject. Thanks for some of the history I did not know.
I will undoubtedly have to rewatch it as I did not catch Q saying PPKs only PPK. I am sure I could look it up but that wouldn't enable me to go see it again

__________________
John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

Many years back I remember reading about a ring that had to be worn of the shooters hand for the gun to operate. I wonder what ever became of that idea...

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

The gun is shown in this trailer, go to 1:05.

SKYFALL - Official Trailer - YouTube

Amen to that.

I was disappointed with my first groups out of a new to me Para .45 at 50 feet. Shooting offhand I was keeping them all in the head of a reduced combat target. Still, that is 5-6 inches and I can do much better. As I was packing to leave, two off duty LEO's came in and set up at 21 feet. They were both slapping each other on the back for keeping their Glock .40's in the 6 to 10 rings on full size combat targets- that like a 12 -15 inch group firing slow with a two handed hold. Yech!

As for the Bond books and films, the debate over 007's miniscule firearm and his prowess with it is amusing to me. Fictional characters can do amazing things. Heck, remember Rico Tubbs in Miami Vice? He could kill a running perp at 100 yards with a single one-handed shot from his Model 36!
The PPK's I've shot over the years were fairly accurate at 25 feet and easy to handle with one hand. They also jammed with alarming frequency. Very picky about ammo. Bond should carry a SIG P238 as a BUG and a P938 as a primary.

As usual, pictures of my guns are done by Smith357 and he gets credit here as well.

My understanding was the the 318 ended production in 1937. My 418 is dated 1948 (on the frame visible in the picture), and has the alloy frame and cocking indicator which are later modifications to the 418.

The Beretta is lost/replaced several times in the books. While they never mention him using an alloy framed Beretta, I choose to believe that it is the "shiney new Beretta" that "M" gave him at the end of Moonraker.

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Dave

I think Massad Ayoob may have bought the rights to that company or became a distributor or something. He certainly recommended it. The system required a minor modification to Smith & Wesson revolvers and required the user to wear a powerful magnetic ring on each hand. People still used floppy disks back then and handling them wearing magnets on your hands probably didn't work out very well.

It was in his waistband, not in the holster, and it was actually the silencer that got caught.

Which made the whole thing about changing guns kinda stupid.....

That's also a great way to erase your credit and debit cards!

I think the 318 was actually INTRODUCED in 1937.

On the Beretta board, someone showed one with steel frame (I think he tested it with a magnet) and an Italian -issued holster. That gun was a bring-back from the war by a relative of the lady who now owns it, I think her father. One member tried to buy it, even the holster alone, as it is uncommon, not being an issue item. The officer who carried it probably bought the gun , and was likely pretty high ranking, small autos appealing to senior officers who seldom experienced real combat. It was also a prestige symbol to infer that one was so important that he wouldn't personally have to use his pistol. I think they said this war trophy gun was made in 1940.

I can check Wood's book again, but am almost certain that 1949 was the intro date for the early Model 418. All that I've seen had the alloy frame, which sometimes changes color. Maybe only alloy frames were exported to the USA?

I missed the, "Moonraker" reference to the shiny new Beretta. In that case, Bond would have probably gotten a Model 418, even a Model 950! That would mean that his statement to M in, "Dr No" meant that he had used that TYPE of Beretta for 15 years, not the same gun. That would make sense, and he probably got a Model 418 as the new one, it being the model then produced.

You might want to check that book again as the 418 pictured above is dated 1948 on the frame (visible in the picture). Also, you might want to read the link I had above, they pretty well eliminate the 950 as an option at anytime for bond.

My understanding is that the 318 was released in 1935 and changed to the 418 with the addition of the cocking indicator in 1937. Steel frame is the by far the most common, but you may be correct about the importation of alloys into America.

Here is some additional detail:

Beretta mod. 418 - Berettaweb(c)

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Dave

Never owned nor fired a PPK. But, I don't remember having a malfunction in my 7.65mm Manurhin PP (made for Berlin police?), and I feed it mostly cast bullet handloads.

Love how they always forget that in Dr No the book bond was given two guns in addition to one handcannon in the car.

A smith and wesson centennial for long distance work, the PPK for daily carry given its size and dimensions and the popularity of 7.65 when it was a cop cartridge in germany and the rest of the world

and then either a colt new service revolver in .45 long colt or a .44 magnum blackhawk in the dash of his car.

now realistically it would need to be atleast .380 anyways if he was going to america.

I have both PPk/s and a PP and both are German made and I like both of them except they bite me. I worked at Shootes for a few years and we had one customer who was German and was Polizei. He saw me shooting my PP once and told me it took him a full magazine to shoot through a windshield.

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Stan

And that is especially interesting, because in one book, Bond shot through the windshield of a train with the .25!
I regarded that as being "literary license".

I did read the link above, and it has some interesting stuff. But I think his bilbio. link to the, "Sports Ill." article, "The Guns of James Bond" was not written by Fleming, but by Boothroyd. However, it has been decades since I read it, and I could easily be wrong. I think this may be the article where it was revealed that Fleming had read an, "American Rifleman" story evaluating various enemy pistols of WW II against our .45 auto. It was an unfair comparison in some regards, matching apples to oranges. It is one thing to compare a Tokarev or P-38 to a .45, another to compare a Sauer M-38H or PPK to the .45. If you can locate that article in the Mar. 10, 1962 issue of Sports Ill.", it is well worth reading. I did read the same "AR" article that Boothroyd gave Fleming, and it would not have led me to select the PPK. I'm quite sure that Fleming was focused on a very concealable gun.

He got confused when Boothroyd suggested the Centennial .38 for the carry gun and an M-27 in .357 for the car gun. B. told me that he in part had ammo interchangbility in mind with that combo. But F. got the .38 confused with the much larger and heavier .357 and Bond took the Centennial to Crab Key. F. said that there were various barrel lengths, 3.5 inches, five inches, etc. That made it obvious that he was thinking of the .357, not the Centennial. I think B. cringed in horror when F. had the Maj. Boothroyd character speak those words!

I don't think that B. ever suggested a PPK. That was F.'s idea. When the M-60 .38 appeared in 1965, B. was quick to acknowledge it as the best Bond gun, for the stainless construction as well as the general advantages of small .38's. But F. had died by then, so nothing came of it.

B. def. wrote an article in, "Guns" about the 007 weapons. Alas, I don't recall the date. He had an enormous knowledge of fireams, both antique and modern. As for silencers, he thought that most people in Europe, at least, wouldn't identify a gunshot as such. They'd think it was a car backfiring or something else. To test that theory, he once shot out some candles with blank .450 ammo in a Colt SAA .45. No one called the cops, although neighbors must have heard the shots.

However, I suspect that if the shots had been fired in an adjacent hotel room, the results might have been different. I'm pretty sure that modern residents in Los Angeles might suspect gunfire!

I've knocked down more than a few steel rams at 200yds with my .41 mag.

Not sure if they (German police) used the .380. IIRC , they went to the Walther PP Super in 9x18 Ultra after trading in their 7.65mm PPs.

The PP Super was never widely used. The replacement guns for most 7.65mm's were the Walther P-5, SIG P-225/P-6, and H-K P-7. All in 9X19mm. Dutch police also widely adopted the P-5.

Quite a few P-6's have been sold off here. Most have the hammers cut away partly so they'd show if dropped and bent. That would alert armorers to possible gun damage.
The H-K USP seems to be the German Army pistol. Not sure about current police guns.

Remember the times, the British captured a load of equipment when they devastated the Italian Army in North Africa, until the Africa Corps arrived, then it was touch and go until Allied air controlled the Med. Large numbers of Berettas of various types went into the arsenal of the various British Secret Services, the 1934 was popular and the nearest thing to a standard. Rubber bands around the grip were taught as well, we use fancy ones today which are much more expensive, back then they were cut from discarded bicycle inner tubes.
Geoff
Who takes the information from various books he read in his days as an impressionable youth.

In another forum I go to, I've always maintained that the literary Bond would be best served with an Ortgies .32 ACP. He likes small calibers, he likes concealability. It was very accurate, it was technologically far ahead of its time (striker-fired in the early 1920's, albeit without a safety mechanism that made carrying one cocked a bit dangerous), magazines would have been easy to come by, and Fleming probably would have been just ignorant enough of firearms to ignore the next-to-impossible assembly procedure. ;-)

In the WWII period Bond would have been best served by a 1910 FN Browning. In .380 or .32, but the Berettas were available in the real world, and the Brits used a lot of PPK Walthers after the war, long after.
Geoff
Who notes the small pocket Colts were used by the OSS, along with everything else.