Good morning:

I must have been a good guy last year as I received some nice money from work (cash incentive awards for special projects and assignments), as well as Christmas cash from the in-laws, and am thinking about adding to the long gun collection.

I've wanted an AK-47 for some time now, but never got around to purchasing one for a variety of reasons. I know of the AK's legendary reputation for ruggedness and reliability, and its reputation for being more of a "bullet hose" than a target rifle.

I'm wondering if I'd be better served with a .308 caliber semi-auto rather than an AK pattern rifle. I've talked to some knowledgeable shooters, and they suggested the PTR-91 over the AR-10 pattern rifles as I'll primarily be using the rifle for target shooting, and maybe some occassional hunting.

The reviews and reports I've read about the PTR-91 are generally favorable, with the exception of the way it flings and damages the brass shell casings.

So, I would appreciate any advice or suggestions my fellow Forum members might have in this matter - which would you choose, and why?

Thank you for your help.

Regards,

Dave

Not much help for an answer to your question but having owned HK's, Cetmes, FAL's, M1A's, etc. and from what little I know, I think the ptr is a nice copy of the HK.
I don't recall and am just curious, but does the ptr have a fluted chamber like the HK does? It certainly marks the brass.
Having also owned a variety of AK's, I think every red-blooded American should have one.

An AK is far easier on the wallet to shoot.

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

Well, if you really want a AK, nothing else will do. The 91 and its variants are bigger, heavier, much more powerful, and much more expensive to shoot, though that last thing could change somewhat in the future.

I am not a fan of the 91/91-pattern rifles. They are a bit like Glocks, in my view. They work, and do so quite well, but I would walk past a pile of them for an M-1A of the flavor I preferred, whether it be full-length rifle or one of the shorter versions. It is over-simplifying but think, "Glock vs. 1911."

As to reloading "91-ed" brass, forget it. Yes, it can be done, but it will not be pretty. I have even heard people say 91s are easier on brass than M-1As. That may be, I don't know, but the cases are sure a mess when a 91 is done with them.

I think your choice has to start with the cartridge. If the 7.62x39 is what you really want, the choice is clear. If you want a 7.62x51, then I would be looking elsewhere.

One final thought - have you considered a Mini-30? It is no AK, and you are limited by the available factory magazines, but they are really handy little rifles in the 7.62x39 caliber - and American-made, if that matters to you.

They are so completely different that it's like asking should I get a Honda Civic or a Ford monster truck.

Neither of the two are target rifles. And both will do a steady 3moa. The PTR had a good idea if only they stuck with the original German design. Generally they are ok and function with the exception of those that had the chamber flutes redesigned. The caliber goes further and hits harder but is more expensive to shoot. Their biggest problem are the rollers. They need replacement otherwise your headspace opens up. They also fling brass into the next zip code....if you like to reload prepare to go scavenger hunting

The AK is not the bullet hose people make it out to be. I can keep hitting the center mass of a target at 300 yards with iron sights all day long with boring repetivness. Ammo is cheaper, gun is lighter and easier to handle. The down side is that it's not a bench rifle....if that's how you like to shoot. And the fact that quite a lot of US companies have been making sub par rifles using parts kits. I would consider the AK overall more durable rifle if using surplus parts.

Neither are easy to scope but most AKs come with a side rail but you do need specific rail mounts....which are easily available.

The two biggest things with these legacy rifles (to include FALs) is to know what you're buying. There is a lot of cool looking but useless and ultimately poorly made aftermarket parts

For me personally I don't like to sit at a bench and I do man handle my guns so I'd stick with the AK. My 308 is a FAL

PTR.

A no brainer to me.

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Jorge

Buy the AK, you know you want it. For target shooting and hunting use a Remington 700. It won't damage your casings. Just my 2 cents.

Why have you discounted an AR-10 style rifle? The past couple years have really shown the ARs in .308 to come into their own. In my opinion, S&W markets one of the best to be had currently.

I would stay away from the PTR because I am a reloader. Thanks to MagPul AR-10 magazines are cheap and plentiful now. Go for an AR-10.

Russian variants of the AKM offer .308 in an AK platform. The Saiga, made in Izhevsk, and the Vepr, made in Vyatskie Polyany, offer a wide range of calibers. The Super Vepr in .308 will dent all brass, but the brass clears and is ejected with authority. I use a Saiga IZ-137, which has the 16.3" barrel and shoots 308s, for walking the woods and would feel quite confident with the standard 8 round factory magazines. I use the Vepr when sitting.

The Vepr is a step up in design and comes with wood furniture. RPK-designed and a much stiffer spring assembly, they cost a bit more. The Saiga is the one to throw in the mud and shoot.

Never had the desire to own a PTR-91 after shooting and handling the Saigas and Veprs. Good luck.

Rangemaster has some good points, particularly about the magazines, but an S&W M&P10 is a lot more bucks.

I run a Vepr 5.45 that's been debanned. Zero recoil and accurate

i have both and voted ak. these are a really good buy.

https://www.classicfirearms.com/zast...-2mags762x39sa

I went thru a "Black Rifle" phase years back, and have owned, or extensively shot most of these type weapons.

My take on the AK... Functional combat rifle with poor sights. Not very accurate, though accurate enough to do what it was built for. Poor trigger on most. Easy to scope with receiver side mounts. Cheap, available ammo.

The CETME / PTR-91 / HK-91 series....Also very reliable and functional. Better fit and finish than most AK's, better triggers, more accurate, heavier, nicer ergos. Much better sights with the rotating drum peep sight. Scope mounting is easy with the proper claw type mount. Fluted chambers, so they do mark up brass. The roller lock action seldom needs any repair, and checking headspace is easy with a feeler gauge. The PTR-91, belonging to a friend, was just as well made and accurate as my HK-91, and frankly a steal at the $800 / $900 range they are available for. The take cheap surplus aluminum HK mags at about $3.00 each.

AR-10......Varies by manufacturer, but most are reliable and well made, accurate, with good triggers. I have an Armalite AR-10t, and it is a 1/2 inch gun with a sweet trigger.

M1a......Nice balance, well made, very shootable. Nice trigger and sights. Accurate and reliable. I have owned several, and both are under 1 inch rifles with the right ammo. Neither has beat up the brass to the point it effects reloading. Scope mounting requires a good mount, like the ARMS mount I use on mine.

Out of the dozen or so big bore battle rifles I have owned, I have kept the AR-10t, a CETME, and an M1a. Sold my HK-91 for big bucks, as the CETME is just as reliable, and more accurate, a 1 inch gun, believe it or not.

Larry

And...correct me if I'm wrong, but AR10 mags do not work in the S&W10.
It uses proprietary mags and parts. It will
accept the magpuls though, which are used in the Remington's.

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“Look life in its iron face”

I vote for a high end AK. A Krebs' tuned Arsenal goes for $2K, and is well worth the investment. Arsenal SAMs run $1,300+/-, and are also excellent. 7.62x39 ammo is as cheap as it was pre-2013 panic.

If I was to go the .308 route, I would buy a SOCOM 16 a second time. Had one and sold it ... the most accurate rifle I've ever owned.

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I'm with the banned ...

I have Armalite AR10's, R25 Remington, Ak's, HK91, PTR91,cetme's, and I pick the PTR. I have been reloading from the HK variants for many years with no problems. And no, the Armalite mags will not work in anything else.

I've had an HK 91 and did not like the recoil impulse. I don't know how to describe it, but, to me, it feels different. I don't like shooting them.

If I didn't already have a pre ban AK (actually a couple) I'd be looking for a NORINCO or Polytech AK. They're Chicom military AKs without the selector. Some of the best and collectable at the same time.

There's the Zastava M77 .308 AK. It comes with a thumbhole stock but that can be changed out. Although it takes it's own magazines, M14/M1A mags can be modified with a dremel, and a steady hand. They are like $519 at Classic.

Oh good grief. Another gunstore that thinks I want a broken barrel, when I really need one with a BRAKE.

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Release the Kraken

If you don't already have an ak, I would go with ak. Cheap to shoot and reliable.

I vote the AK but you have to do research for the right one for you. You could spend 1000 on one and it may not shoot better than one that is 600.
I do not have any trust in the PTR series. They have been made for many years with varying quality.

Arsenal AK will never let you down and is a fine weapon. I have a SLR 95 converted with all Bulgarian parts by Troy Sellers at Inrange. sold off the 308 battle rifles years ago. Bolt guns for the long distance stuff, AK for the wet work.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Good morning:

Thank you to all who have responded thus far. I've received some excellent advice, suggestions and ideas, and I am very grateful to all of you for your responses.

I guess what is the "worst" thing for me in this situation is that I really don't NEED another long gun..this is strictly an addition to my firearm collection. Because of this, and because I am a pragmatic man, I am trying to be cost sensitive, and I want to make a smart decision in my purchase.

I recently purchased a Remington 783 in .308 Winchester for my son to use as a deer rifle, so I do have a bolt-action rifle for hunting, and long range shooting.

The AKs aren't pretty, but I think of them as the next step up from an M-1 carbine - which I think is a marvelous little gun. I am surprised from some of you that the AK is as accurate as indicated - I was always told that AK and accuracy did not belong in the same book, nor even the same page. Thus, the AK is still a contender here.

M29: excellent points in your post. You are right, I really need to think about the different calibers - as well as the different purposes for each rifle - and go from there. Isn't a Mini 30 essentially an American made AK equivalent? If I recall correctly, I believe the general word is the Mini 30 is "okay' from an accuracy perspective, but the thin barrel overheats pretty quickly. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Range Master: I've been told the AR-10s are expensive, not very durable, nor particularly accurate. One of the guys at the LGS recommended a FAL, CETME, etc. - anything but an AR-10. He had some AR-10 types available for sale, but not an HK-91, PTR-91, or FAL type rifle in stock.

m5aw: Wow, I hadn't even considered a SOCOM 16. I know they are pricey, but that is something worth considering.

Please keep the ideas and suggestions coming. I really do appreciate all of your ideas and suggestions, and will let all of you know what I decide once I've figured this out.

Regards,

Dave

Try to get a pic for you.



This is what can be done with a Saiga AK-47, adding the punch of a .308, with a turned barrel and hicap mag. Nice sights, too.

Saiga vs Super Vepr

Hi Bud Jr.:

Wow! Nice looking rifle. What kind of accuracy are you getting from your Saiga and Super Vepr? Are the barrels chrome lined in these rifles?

Thanks,

Dave

Barrels are chrome lined. I can't speak for Bud but my Vepr 5.45 does about 2.5 - 3 moa with surplus ammo

Just to help you make up your mind
Classic Beauty....

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP

Just to throw a monkey wrench in and make you think...have you ever thought of building your own AR10 ? There are many companies that build components, and for the most part you can pick and choose how you want it to look, as well as build it for what you want to do with it.

I'd buy the AK. I'd also buy a bunch of ammo and magazines while they are cheap and plentiful.

Prices and availability can change in an instant.

If you're just looking for a range toy, any AK will be cheaper to feed than a PTR-91.

But if you are looking for that "one" rifle that can do it all, the PTR-91 is a much better choice. Disclaimer --- I own a PTR-91F (the 18" model) but I don't own an AK (shot plenty though).

Pros to the PTR-91 are accuracy (not sure why some guys are saying they aren't accurate), reliability, and cheap replacement parts/magazines. With an optic, a cheek riser, and a bipod you have an excellent all-around rifle that is fine with everything from cheap steel case Russian junk all the way to match grade .308.

Cons are the rifle is definitely tough on brass and it does kick harder than most other semi .308s. It's the price you pay for that heavy bolt and carrier slamming back and forth, which is what makes extraction and feeding so dead reliable (just keep the flutes clean!).

.308 Veprs are neat rifles but aren't in the same class re: magazines and parts as 91s. Plus most savvy owners want a nice premium for them now that there is an import ban in place. These don't usually sunset e.g. Chinese SKSes. If you're in states with restrictions the Veprs are usually fine while the PTR with its evil flash hider and pistol grip would be verboten.

The brand new Russian Izmash Saiga.

Why arnt you selling me that yet?

If you are a peasant living in DirkaDirkastan get the AK47..
If you live in the western world and desire something that has more lethal range, is more accurate, more refined get the PTR91...
Up to you...

The PTR is a battle rifle. The AK is an assault rifle.

Depends on what you want to use it for. Longer ranges, the PTR. Short range the AK.

The 308 AK is one way to "kind of" get both. The 308 Saiga I had was very accurate.

If you are seriously looking at an AK, you would be doing yourself a disservice by not considering the Czech Vz.58 as well. The Vz. is lighter, has better ergonomics, is more compact and was reliable in my hands. All have a milled receiver that is theoretically more rigid than a stamped AK. As long as you don't plan on tacticooling the **** out of an AK, a Vz.58 is a better gun out of the box. Century makes a decent and very cheap clone in the Vz. 2008, and Czechpoint is making gorgeous assembled-in-the-USA copies assembled with high quality Czech barrels and furniture for Arsenal AK money.

I suppose you could say that, but to me it is just a slightly more powerful M-1 Carbine. It works like familiar U.S. service rifles so if you are familiar with those, the controls of the Mini will seem similar to you. (The mag release is M14-ish, the safety Garand-ish, and charging the same as the Carbine.) As to accuracy, the newer ones are said to be better than the older ones and my experience is that it is true. I was not happy with my early one. My present one, in stainless steel with black composite stock, has been much better. Sometimes Minis need a more powerful hammer spring to reliably fire cheap imported ammo. That is no big expense. I shoot my handloads and have never had a misfire, malfunction, or accuracy problem with the new gun. It's great, for its intended purpose, but it's not made to be a target rifle.

If you can swing it, a great suggestion, IMO. I like both the Squad Scout and SOCOM models of the M-1A. I wasn't impressed til I actually handled one but that changed my mind. If you want a 7.62x51 and you want something more compact than the standard M-1A, I would look closely at both of those models.

If the choice is between the Ak47 and G3 (PTR)....its G3.
Now ...if the choice now includes the M1A as an option my vote is M1A ALL THE WAY !

Using surplus south African 308 ball ammo in my 16" barreled brand new Russian izmash saiga benchrested will shoot 1 1/2" groups(no scope) @ 100 yds. That's with me and my son shooting it so it's no fluke.
The "brand new Russian izmash saiga rifle" performs flawlessly. I never expected a ak/akm rifle to perform this accurate. For the cost of just $307 OTD brand new with taxes at the time was hard to beat. I still think it's the hottest gun to hit our shores since the sks first arrived here. The Russians at izmash did say they focused on making the saiga more accurate than its ak brothers. They did admit our calibers of 223/308 are a tad more accurate than there Russian calibers are.

The guys on the saiga-12 site are shooting better tighter groups using over the counter quality ammo. The reloads are even more accurate.

For a welded up sheet metal rifle being this accurate I'm beyond impressed.

I was on the way to purchase a new SA M1a when I spotted a full rack of the brand new saiga for just $289? M1a @$2,100 vs saiga @ $289? Down the road I did buy a all forged m14s Chinese norinco for under $400. But I prefer the lighter saiga over the m14. Long range the m14 rocks but for 500yards and under the affordable saiga can hold its own.

I have the new saiga in 223 but we haven't benched it yet. I have the 21" barreled 308 saiga but we shot it yet for accuracy. I would think the 21" barrel should shoot farther and more accurate than the 16" barrel.

Neither, especially if what you really want is a 308. Go with a FAL instead, preferably a well built one like the Para below.




Shot at 300 yards

I must add for all these many years when the first ak arrived here I never wanted one. In the later years the converted ones from full auto to semi auto by the meat cutters, butcher's at century arms looked like some were dragged on the gravel roads. While others had poor fitting wood.
When I seen the brand new Russian izmash saiga sportier in the american calibers I jumped on the 308. I have no regrets buying this one.

I have no experience with an AK, but did own a HK91 before I sold it to buy a M1A.
It was a reliable gun, but I found the gun heavy, lackluster accuracy, strange ergonomics with an odd recoil. It's also hard on brass if you reload and as stated before, ejects the brass into a low earth orbit.

They were never converted from full to semi auto. Way way back in the early 90s Norinco imported some that were full auto but not legally. Century imports semi auto only and always has, so has everyone else. For an AK to be full auto it needs what's called a 3rd pin. For this the receiver must be drilled. Once that hole is made the rifle is forever and ever considered a machine gun is will be illegal. There is no way around it. You cannot plug that hole and you cannot weld it closed. Even if someone did it will still be considered a machine gun until the receiver is completely destroyed by the ATF. Even if you take out all the full auto parts it is still a machine gun and still illegal. No loopholes no nothing. It's either a legal semi auto without the 3rd pin or its not. The 3rd pin automatically makes it a machine gun regardless of how it actually function. Even without the barrel and everything else....the receiver just by itself. ...still a machine gun!

What Century imports are rifles that are built from the ground up on semi auto only receivers. The trunions, furniture, barrels, sights are military but the receiver is made specifically for US to be semi auto and single stack. When the rifle gets here Century open up the magwell to accept a double stack mag and swap enough 922r parts to make it legal. Otherwise if they wanted to import it as a double stack it would have to come in as a sporter, like the Saiga.

LEGAL



ILLEGAL