beetledude
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Once upon a time there was a Distinguished English Gentleman. His name was Webley and he was proud to serve in the Queen's Army. The Webley Revolver was the standard to which other revolvers were measured against. All around the world British troops carried the Webley as the standard issue sidearm.
Our friend Webley had served for many years. Perhaps he was just a bit past his prime, but still handsome nevertheless. One day he was invited to attend a social function. He knew that many of the younger socialites would attend from upstart countries like America. And lately there was a buzz about the younger generation calling themselves "automatics". Webley laughed to himself -- those young automatics were just too clunky, too awkward to replace officers like himself, the Revolvers.
At the function he listened with half interest as the automatics went on and on about magazines, and single action triggers. Webley smiled politely but knew that they lacked experience. Revolvers like himself were tried and true and they had the victories to prove it. While the young female automatics were indeed attractive, Webley wanted something more. Then he saw her. She was older -- perhaps even older than him. There was something about her. Not the brashness of newly forged steel. But rather, an air of elegance and of experience. He could tell she came from an established family.
Webley discovered that she came from the Mauser family, a line as old and prestigious as his own Webley family -- perhaps even more. While she had nice grips and sleek lines, Webley found he could not stop staring at her face. It was different, elegant, yet purposeful with those zig zag lines.
Of course the Grand German Dame had heard of Webley. His reputation was well known and she could see the strength in him. It was a mutual attraction.
They did end up spending the night with each other but ultimately they were too different for it to be a lasting relationship. He was British and in the Army, while she was German, and retired. They both knew that the night would never be more than a pleasant memory....
... until one day Dame Mauser made contact with Webley. Apparently their affair had resulted in an offspring. Webley was skeptical at first as the Mauser was a bit old. So was he! How would it be possible for an offspring to occur?
The Dame and his alleged son showed up at his estate in England. The boy did indeed share some of his features -- large and strong, top break hinge. But Webley wondered if perhaps the Dame just found a local boy to play the part. Until he looked closely at the boy's face. It was unmistakable, he took after his mother.
The Webley-Fosbery "Automatic" Revolver
George Vincent Fosbery served in the British Indian Army, where he achieved the rank of lieutant colonel. Most notably, Fosbery was awarded the Victoria Cross, the highest and most prestigious award for gallantry in the face of an enemy (similar to our Medal of Honor). Fosbery was awarded the medal for his actions in the Umbeyla Campaign in India. His garrison had sustained heavy losses trying to recapture a strategic highpoint, the Crag Picquet. Due to the rocky nature of the hill, only one or two soldiers could advance at a time with the enemy being able to pick off the lone soldiers. His commanding officer ordered Fosbery to assault the hill from one side, while he would do the same from another. Fosbery calmy lead his troops up the hillside while facing enemy fire. He was the first to make it to top of the hill, and while harassing the enemy the other group was able to join him. His commanding officer was wounded and Fosbery took command of the entire group and proceeded to route enemy. Even as the enemy disengaged, Fosbery assembled a party to pursue the enemy inflicting further loses. For his actions Fosbery was awarded the Victoria Cross at the age of 31 in 1863.
After retiring from the Army, Fosbery started tinkering with firearms utilizing the knowledge that he had gained in the field. He started working on improving the revolvers of the time. One of his biggest complaints was that the long and heavy double action pull of a revolver resulted in taking the gun off-target. Alternatively a shooter could cock the hammer first, but that requires either two hands or slowing down the rate of fire. Fosbery wanted to have a fast firing weapon that would also have the benefits of the easy to fire single action trigger.
He ultimately came up with a design much like semi-automatic pistols today -- an upper recoiling part and the lower frame incorporating the grip. In his early experiments he used a mechanism attached to the side of the revolver which would cock the hammer and rotate the cylinder. He first started working with Colts because they were plentiful and parts were cheap. However the Colt frames were just not built to withstand the forces of a recoiling top end. Fosbery then switched to using Webley revolvers as his test bed. Webley frames were much heavier and better suited for recoiling forces. However Fosbery soon discovered that the delicate pawl and ratchet system of traditional revolvers were not up to the task. Taking a page from the past Fosbery utilized the zig-zag channel system of advancing the cylinder first devised by Paul Mauser in the 1870s.
Because he was an independent inventor he did not have the resources to complete this project. So he took it to the firm of Webley. Webley was interested because they were starting to see new "automatics" come out of Germany (Borchardt, Broomhandle) as well as America (Colt 1900). Webley thought this design might help them compete against the automatics while leveraging their strength in revolver production.
The project was turned over to William Whiting, workshop foreman for Webley. While Fosbery's designs were shown to conceptually work, they were "add ons" to existing revolvers. For example, the mechanism to operate the zig zag design was on the side of the revolver, resulting in an unbalanced pistol. Whiting took Fosbery's concepts and incorporated them into a brand new design.
After a few years of continued development, the Webley-Fosbery automatic pistol was launched in 1901
How the Zig Zag works. There is a stud on the bottom half of the frame which rides in the grooves cut into the cylinder. As the top half is moving backwards because of recoil, the stud causes the cylinder to rotate. In addition, the hammer is cocked back.
Here is an animated gif of the action
Webley tried to get the British military to adopt this gun as a replacement for their standard revolvers. The military did test a few of the guns and found that the gun did perform nicely in terms of trigger pull and speed of fire. However, the gun performed poorly when dust or dirt found their way into the lower half.
Webley also tried to submit the automatic revolver to the United States as a part of their program to replace the revolver. As a part of the trials that were held in 1907 the US Military tested the Webley-Fosbery. In fact the gun excelled in the speed tests, firing 18 shots in 21 seconds. Other revolvers that were tested (including the Colt) had taken significantly longer. However when the Webley-Fosbery was subjected to dirt and dust tests the gun failed miserably requiring the hammer to be cocked by hand after each test.
Ultimately the US Army rejected the gun as did the British Army. In fact the Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver did not find any military contracts at all. During WWI a handfull were sold to British Officers (who typically bought their own gear), but by that time the Webley-Fosbery was facing competition from the Webley Self Loading Automatic Pistol (another one of Whiting's designs). The gun was sold all the way up until 1924 but in very small quantities, no more than 5 or 10 a month. In total only about 4000 Webley-Fosbery Automatic Pistols were produced.
I actually kind of got "lucky" in buying this one. In the seller description it was noted that the gun had the following fault:
"Hammer & safety operate properly, but unable to manually cycle – mechanics need adjustment. "
Because of this I believe the bidding was a lot less than it could have been. But I was concerned that the gun would have a major mechanical problem.
Actually it turned out to be nothing at all! What happened is that somebody opened the top (as if to eject the spent shells). While the top was open, they rotated the cylinder. So when they closed the gun the peg that normally rides in the zig zag grooves was instead inside of the flutes cut into the rear of the cylinder.
So all I had to do was to open the top again, rotate the barrel slightly, and ensure that the peg was back into the zig zag groove. After that the gun operates perfectly! This is an early gun, serial #69. In later models Webley added a peg that locks the cylinder in place when the top is open.
Ultimately the gun was a developmental dead end. At the end of the day it still had all of the disadvantages of a revolver - limited shot capacity and slow reload times.
As a final footnote the spirit of the Webley-Fosbery was briefly resurrected in 1998 when an Italian Pasta Company built the Mateba Unica. Like the Webley-Fosbery it too is an "auto-revolver" which uses recoil action to turn the cylinder and cock the hammer. Also like the Webley-Fosbery it found only limited success -- mainly for the novelty factor.
Acknowledgements
"Before you buy guns, buy books!" Collectors Motto
Most of the information shared above comes from the book "Webley and Scott Automatic Pistols" by Gordon Bruce.
Our friend Webley had served for many years. Perhaps he was just a bit past his prime, but still handsome nevertheless. One day he was invited to attend a social function. He knew that many of the younger socialites would attend from upstart countries like America. And lately there was a buzz about the younger generation calling themselves "automatics". Webley laughed to himself -- those young automatics were just too clunky, too awkward to replace officers like himself, the Revolvers.
At the function he listened with half interest as the automatics went on and on about magazines, and single action triggers. Webley smiled politely but knew that they lacked experience. Revolvers like himself were tried and true and they had the victories to prove it. While the young female automatics were indeed attractive, Webley wanted something more. Then he saw her. She was older -- perhaps even older than him. There was something about her. Not the brashness of newly forged steel. But rather, an air of elegance and of experience. He could tell she came from an established family.
Webley discovered that she came from the Mauser family, a line as old and prestigious as his own Webley family -- perhaps even more. While she had nice grips and sleek lines, Webley found he could not stop staring at her face. It was different, elegant, yet purposeful with those zig zag lines.
Of course the Grand German Dame had heard of Webley. His reputation was well known and she could see the strength in him. It was a mutual attraction.
They did end up spending the night with each other but ultimately they were too different for it to be a lasting relationship. He was British and in the Army, while she was German, and retired. They both knew that the night would never be more than a pleasant memory....
... until one day Dame Mauser made contact with Webley. Apparently their affair had resulted in an offspring. Webley was skeptical at first as the Mauser was a bit old. So was he! How would it be possible for an offspring to occur?
The Dame and his alleged son showed up at his estate in England. The boy did indeed share some of his features -- large and strong, top break hinge. But Webley wondered if perhaps the Dame just found a local boy to play the part. Until he looked closely at the boy's face. It was unmistakable, he took after his mother.
The Webley-Fosbery "Automatic" Revolver
George Vincent Fosbery served in the British Indian Army, where he achieved the rank of lieutant colonel. Most notably, Fosbery was awarded the Victoria Cross, the highest and most prestigious award for gallantry in the face of an enemy (similar to our Medal of Honor). Fosbery was awarded the medal for his actions in the Umbeyla Campaign in India. His garrison had sustained heavy losses trying to recapture a strategic highpoint, the Crag Picquet. Due to the rocky nature of the hill, only one or two soldiers could advance at a time with the enemy being able to pick off the lone soldiers. His commanding officer ordered Fosbery to assault the hill from one side, while he would do the same from another. Fosbery calmy lead his troops up the hillside while facing enemy fire. He was the first to make it to top of the hill, and while harassing the enemy the other group was able to join him. His commanding officer was wounded and Fosbery took command of the entire group and proceeded to route enemy. Even as the enemy disengaged, Fosbery assembled a party to pursue the enemy inflicting further loses. For his actions Fosbery was awarded the Victoria Cross at the age of 31 in 1863.
After retiring from the Army, Fosbery started tinkering with firearms utilizing the knowledge that he had gained in the field. He started working on improving the revolvers of the time. One of his biggest complaints was that the long and heavy double action pull of a revolver resulted in taking the gun off-target. Alternatively a shooter could cock the hammer first, but that requires either two hands or slowing down the rate of fire. Fosbery wanted to have a fast firing weapon that would also have the benefits of the easy to fire single action trigger.
He ultimately came up with a design much like semi-automatic pistols today -- an upper recoiling part and the lower frame incorporating the grip. In his early experiments he used a mechanism attached to the side of the revolver which would cock the hammer and rotate the cylinder. He first started working with Colts because they were plentiful and parts were cheap. However the Colt frames were just not built to withstand the forces of a recoiling top end. Fosbery then switched to using Webley revolvers as his test bed. Webley frames were much heavier and better suited for recoiling forces. However Fosbery soon discovered that the delicate pawl and ratchet system of traditional revolvers were not up to the task. Taking a page from the past Fosbery utilized the zig-zag channel system of advancing the cylinder first devised by Paul Mauser in the 1870s.
Because he was an independent inventor he did not have the resources to complete this project. So he took it to the firm of Webley. Webley was interested because they were starting to see new "automatics" come out of Germany (Borchardt, Broomhandle) as well as America (Colt 1900). Webley thought this design might help them compete against the automatics while leveraging their strength in revolver production.
The project was turned over to William Whiting, workshop foreman for Webley. While Fosbery's designs were shown to conceptually work, they were "add ons" to existing revolvers. For example, the mechanism to operate the zig zag design was on the side of the revolver, resulting in an unbalanced pistol. Whiting took Fosbery's concepts and incorporated them into a brand new design.
After a few years of continued development, the Webley-Fosbery automatic pistol was launched in 1901
How the Zig Zag works. There is a stud on the bottom half of the frame which rides in the grooves cut into the cylinder. As the top half is moving backwards because of recoil, the stud causes the cylinder to rotate. In addition, the hammer is cocked back.
Here is an animated gif of the action
Webley tried to get the British military to adopt this gun as a replacement for their standard revolvers. The military did test a few of the guns and found that the gun did perform nicely in terms of trigger pull and speed of fire. However, the gun performed poorly when dust or dirt found their way into the lower half.
Webley also tried to submit the automatic revolver to the United States as a part of their program to replace the revolver. As a part of the trials that were held in 1907 the US Military tested the Webley-Fosbery. In fact the gun excelled in the speed tests, firing 18 shots in 21 seconds. Other revolvers that were tested (including the Colt) had taken significantly longer. However when the Webley-Fosbery was subjected to dirt and dust tests the gun failed miserably requiring the hammer to be cocked by hand after each test.
Ultimately the US Army rejected the gun as did the British Army. In fact the Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver did not find any military contracts at all. During WWI a handfull were sold to British Officers (who typically bought their own gear), but by that time the Webley-Fosbery was facing competition from the Webley Self Loading Automatic Pistol (another one of Whiting's designs). The gun was sold all the way up until 1924 but in very small quantities, no more than 5 or 10 a month. In total only about 4000 Webley-Fosbery Automatic Pistols were produced.
I actually kind of got "lucky" in buying this one. In the seller description it was noted that the gun had the following fault:
"Hammer & safety operate properly, but unable to manually cycle – mechanics need adjustment. "
Because of this I believe the bidding was a lot less than it could have been. But I was concerned that the gun would have a major mechanical problem.
Actually it turned out to be nothing at all! What happened is that somebody opened the top (as if to eject the spent shells). While the top was open, they rotated the cylinder. So when they closed the gun the peg that normally rides in the zig zag grooves was instead inside of the flutes cut into the rear of the cylinder.
So all I had to do was to open the top again, rotate the barrel slightly, and ensure that the peg was back into the zig zag groove. After that the gun operates perfectly! This is an early gun, serial #69. In later models Webley added a peg that locks the cylinder in place when the top is open.
Ultimately the gun was a developmental dead end. At the end of the day it still had all of the disadvantages of a revolver - limited shot capacity and slow reload times.
As a final footnote the spirit of the Webley-Fosbery was briefly resurrected in 1998 when an Italian Pasta Company built the Mateba Unica. Like the Webley-Fosbery it too is an "auto-revolver" which uses recoil action to turn the cylinder and cock the hammer. Also like the Webley-Fosbery it found only limited success -- mainly for the novelty factor.
Acknowledgements
"Before you buy guns, buy books!" Collectors Motto
Most of the information shared above comes from the book "Webley and Scott Automatic Pistols" by Gordon Bruce.
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