Cap and Ball Revolvers

OP hope you don't mind me jumping in here and asking a few questions instead of posting something basically the same.

Funny thing is my friend and I were discussing this too not long ago after seeing some replicas at a gun show.

How powerful are they compared to today's calibers?

How exectly do you reload and how fast is it?

Arik... there are several Youtube videos on the subject... even one by hickok45... if you type in "Loading cap & ball revolvers" or something similar in your search. However, most of 'em are rather long (20 minutes or more). Here is one of the shortest videos (at 5mins, 22 secs)...
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSOo-zY0_lc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSOo-zY0_lc[/ame]

One other thing... a lot of people will load with slight differences in the wads, the charges of bp, lubes, and whether or not to seal the balls after they are loaded. (The fella in the video above does not seal his balls in the cylinders, but I do in order to prevent possible "chain fires".) I have developed my own loading methods and have stuck with it for years.

Rustyt1953 also asked "how long will a charge stay fresh in the cylinder?". Well, I have heard of loaded C&B firearms successfully discharging after decades of sitting around idle. I guess it depends on how well the powder charge is sealed in the firearm.
 
I enjoy shooting cap 'n ball revolvers since the 1970s and have a Uberti Colt replica and a Pietta Remington 1862 copy.

I can use up my soft lead from airgun traps for muzzleloader bullets and don't have to carefully cook a good alloy. I do not use the bullet mold in the picture but either a Lee or Lyman.

1858NewModelArmy_zps693a9542.jpg
 
Shooting wise the Remington is a better construction than the Colt
But the Colt is way more beautiful.
Colt have a habit of dropping spent caps into the frame making it freez up
and when clearing it you have to remove the barrel, and point of aim
will be different when you put it back on the frame.

I have a 1980s Pietta 1851 and just inherited a 2d gen Colt 1851. I've found that with the 1851 the old practice of raising the barrel to vertical and then cocking the hammer causes the spent cap to fall away from the revolver. That's the old school (class of 1851) way of keeping the gun functional.
 
Speed of reloading: In military usage, The walkers were reloaded from powder flasks, they had a special adjustable, push to charge built-in measure. They were faster than anything in their day but still slower than molasses. (They were issued in pairs for sustained firepower.) By the Civil War the Union issued "Paper Cartridges". With paper cartridges (36 to the box), you are almost as fast as a SAA including capping.

Accuracy; I have 3 Walker repros, at 20 yards I have gotten 4" 6 shot groups using round ball (.457) and volume measured 40 grains FFg. In my 1860 Army and other similar repros I have gotten 10 yard 2" to 30" with round ball (.457) and 25 grains of FFFg. I have 2 Remington repros, but haven't messed with them. My Best friend and I were at the range last week, he had a older unfired Remington repro (Pietta) using unsized 200 grain 45 ACP round nose bullets and 20 grains of FFFg Goex at 10 yards 1" group with same charge and round balls (.451) he had 2.5"

Balls and conicals: The books and instructions list a number of sizes of round balls; .451, .454,& .457. I only buy .457! They give more bearing surface and a more positive gas seal. Between the ball and powder is at least one OX YOAK lubed wad (and as many as four in large cylinders with small charges. Normally the cylinder mouth is filled with a lube. In cool weather, Crisco will work. In hot weather a mix if Crisco and Paraffin 50/50 or 40/60. A Popsicle stick work like a butter knife.

For about 20 years we have been experimenting with unsized round nose 45ACP castings as conicals. 200 grain has given the best results, but we think 180 would be better! (The original Walker was issued with a conical mould of about 195 grains, the last original mould I saw sell for $16,000.00 and had a small round ball cut into it. In perfect condition I've been told they should be $25,000+)

Use PURE lead, one batch and a few hard bullets in the melting pot and that made for very difficult seating, but very accurate bullets.

Have fun shooting, Ivan
 
I'm also still an Uberti fan although you have to pay attention to what brand they are sold under and/or who's importing them as Uberti makes them to the importers specifications in terms of fit and finish.

I've had issues with the various Pietta cap and ball revolvers I've over the years - the worst being a an 1851 Navy with soft hammer, nipples, hand, etc. The second largest problem I had was with a 1847 Walker Colt copy with a brittle loading handle that snapped, and the most minor issue was a stainless 1858 Remington with a poorly soldered front sight that went AWOL.

My favorites are the Colt Signature series, although when you can find them they now sell for around $800 - about twice what they were 20 years ago.

They were marketed by Colt as an extension of Colt's old serial number ranges for the various models, but it's not widely known that they were made from Uberti parts that were assembled in the US for Colt by Iver Johnson to avoid any import marks. They are however exceptionally well made and well fitted.

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The Ruger Old Army is also an exceptional cap and ball revolver, and they also command high prices.

The 1847 Walker Colt copies will hold up to 60- 65 grains of black powder, launching a 143 gr .457 ball at about 1250 fps. You can also use a 210-225 grain conical projectile with a maximum of around 55 grains of powder and a velocity of around 1000 fps.

While it's true the 1847 Walkers were reported to blow up now and then, metallurgy is a lot more consistent now than it was in 1847, and the Italian replicas are well proofed. I have not heard of one of them blowing up due to a full charge of suitable powder other than internet rumor. If you load it with FFFFg then you'll have a problem, but with FFFg you should bb fine, and if you are in doubt or nervous about it use FFg.

You do however want to avoid a reduced charge resulting in a loose charge in any BP firearm as that can cause damage and I suspect more cap and ball revolvers get broken via an under charge than via an overcharge. (More on this later.)

The first through third model Colt Dragoons are a Walker derivative with some detail improvements and a slightly shorter cylinder. They hold a bit less powder at 50 grains maximum due to the shorter cylinder, but the lever latch helps keep the lever from falling under recoil.

All of the Walker and Dragoon pistols are "horse pistols" designed to be carried in pairs in pommel holsters. You can find regular holsters for them, but they are a load to carry on a belt for a whole day, despite how Josey Wales carries them.

In general, the Walkers Dragoons and the Old Army all use a .457 diameter ball.

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The 1858 Remington, and 1860 Army clones normally use a .454 ball, but you may find some that prefer a .451 or .452 ball and some may need a .457 ball. The .45 caliber versions of the 1851 Navy are more likely to use a .451 or .452 ball.

You want a ball that is large enough to cut an even ring off the ball when you load it - that ensures a snug seal, which helps prevent chain firing of the adjacent cylinders (more on this later), and ensures a proper fit in the bore. On the other hand, you don't want to go overboard to the point it is hard to seat the ball.

Powder capacity for the 1858 clones ranges a bit from about 40 to 45 grains, and with a 143 gr .457 ball and 45 grains of FFFg black powder you can get around 1075 fps. With 40 grains you won't give up much as you'll still get velocities around 1050 fps. With a 215 gr conical projectile and 40 grains you'll get around 875 fps.

1851 and 1860 powder capacity ranges from about 35-40 grains, and given the lack of a top strap and the use of a wedge to retain the barrel, it's a good idea not to push it, and 30 grains of FFFg is generally accepted as a great load in them and will deliver velocities around 875-900 fps with a 138-143 grain ball.

The military load used a 216 gr conical projectile and 30 grains of FFFg, producing a velocity around 800 fps.

All of the above loads are generating performance at, above, or well above .38 Special performance, so they are nothing to sneeze at. In fact, the 1847 Walker Colt, was arguably still the most powerful handgun available until the .357 Magnum came along in 1935 or perhaps the 38/44 slightly before that.

Most of the 1860 replicas are "Type III" pistols with 4 screws and a recess in the grip frame for a shoulder stock. There are also "Type IV" replicas out there that have only 3 screws and no recess in the grip frame for the stock, but like the originals they retain the Type III's notch in the recoil shield originally used for the shoulder stock.

You'll find the 1860 Army revolvers shoot quite high at normal ranges of 10-25 yards as the sights were regulated for the normal napoleonic engagement ranges of 80-100 yards. In close quarter combat it was a moot issue as it was mostly point and shoot, and the 1860s point very well. They are also very well balanced and about 2 pounds lighter than the earlier Dragoon pistols, so they were regarded as something of a high water mark for military cap and ball revolvers.

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You can shoot reduced loads in cap and all revolvers, but you will be limited by the length of the ram on the loading lever and the need to slightly compress the powder charge for reliable and pressure spike free ignition. You can go with even lighter loads, but you'll have to use a filler like corn meal or cream of wheat on top of the powder charge to fill the cylinder and allow you to compress the powder charge.

With a reduced charge and a ball, I normally measure the powder charge, then use another powder flask to fill the cylinder to the top with corn meal, the seat the ball so it is flush or just below flush with the top of the cylinder, compressing the powder and filler the length of the ball.

Chain fires are usually a non event as the ball leaves the pistol without damaging it, but it is disconcerting. The worst case scenario would be a ball discharging below the ram - that would do some serious damage to the pistol and probably the shooter.

There is a school of thought out there that chain fires are caused by the flash from the cap or the gas coming back out through the nipple igniting a cap on an adjacent cylinder. Snug fitting caps (they come in number 10 and number 11 sizes) are important, but IMHO that's not a cause, or at last not a frequent cause of chain fires.

For that to happen the flash or gas escaping through the nipple has to press the cap back against the hammer pressure, make a 180 degree turn to run down between the cap and nipple then make another 180 degree turn to run back up out of the nipple recess, then turn 90 degrees to flow along the recoil shield, then turn 90 degrees back down the adjacent nipple recess, before doing another 180 degree turn into the space between nipple and cap, find it's way under the cap doing another 180 degree turn to enter the inside of the nipple and then have enough heat left to ignite the black powder.

That's just not likely to happen, especially with a a black powder substitute given their higher ignition temperatures.

Again IMHO, the most likely cause is flame coming through the cylinder gap flashing over the adjacent cylinders and getting between the cylinder and the projectile. That's also much more likely with a loose fitting ball, which is one of the primary reasons you want ball large enough to cut a thin ring all the way around the ball on loading.

In any event, you'll want to fully cover the space between the chamber and the ball with grease as a lubricant to help keep the fouling soft, but also to prevent a chain fire. Crisco or some other shortening works fine, but it will go rancid if left in your car, or if left in the pistol in a holster on a hot day. You can also use commercial lubes like Spit Ball - they cost more, but they won't go bad on you.

If you want to carry a cap and ball revolver loaded in a holster all day long and don't want the lube dripping out of the chambers, you can use a lubricated felt wad under the ball instead. This will both lubricate the bore and prevent a chain fire. "Wonder wads" are what I normally use and they work great.

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Black powder substitutes are easier to find, but you need to be aware that they develop a little more pressure than Black Powder. You can use either FFg or FFFg in the larger .45 cal pistols (or the BP substitute equivalents) but you'll want to stick with FFFg in the smaller calibers.

In my experience, BP substitutes also tend to be more corrosive. On a humid day you may find flash rust inside the chambers before you get home after a shooting session. Black Powder tends to be a little more forgiving and takes a little longer to start rusting the gun.

BP substitutes also seem to produce much harder fouling and Pyrodex in particular will stop a tightly fitted revolver in fairly short order. This is where the 1858 Remington and Old Army shine - you can quickly pull the cylinder pin, roll out the cylinder, brush off the face of the cylinder and the area around the forcing cone and be back in business in about a minute. The Colt designs with a barrel wedge take a little longer. On the other hand the more open design resists stoppage due to fouling a little better.

Either way, if the pistol starts to get hard to cock and the cylinder starts to hesitate to move, you'll want to do a quick field cleaning. While you've got it broken down it doesn't hurt to brush the fouling out of the bore either.

If you have a little water or a BP solvent and some patches, it doesn't take much longer to do a more thorough cleaning of the bore, the chambers and the forcing cone area.

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I clean my cap and ball pistols completely at home using tap water, as hot as it will go, to rinse the bore and the non-internal areas of the frame, along with a brush to help remove any fouling. I do take care not to get water inside the action of the pistol. I do make sure I run enough hot water over the firearm to heat it up to the same temp as the water. I then quickly dry it with a soft cotton cloth, and then let the latent heat in the metal finish the drying process. This will generally take care of a drop or two of water that may get inside.

Once the powder residue is removed, I clean the firearm normally with powder solvent, bronze brush, patches etc, like I would any smokeless firearm, and then ensure all the surfaces are lightly oiled. On a cap and ball revolver, I will put a few drops of a rust preventative oil in all the open recesses where some powder residue may be hiding.

Once a year, I'll also detail strip the revolver and throughly clean all the internal parts and surfaces. This approach seems to work as I've never encountered any rust inside the revolvers.

For my high dollar black powder cartridge rifles I'll forgo the water and use a black powder solvent to prevent water getting in contact with expensive wood and metal. As an aside, the BP solvent also works well to clean smokeless firearms using corrosive ammunition.

Revolver or rifle, I then follow up in a few days with oiled patches though the bore and chamber(s) to remove the potentially corrosive chemicals that leach out of the metal, check for any indictions of flash rust, and re-oil the surfaces to prevent rust.

In that regard, stainless steel cap and ball revolvers are nice as they are a little more rust resistant and more water tolerant, so you can worry a little less about your cleaning and re-oiling procedures - within limits.
 
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I always been told that real men shoot black powder. I wonder what Dirty Harry thinks about that?lol

I got a 44cal for fathers day from my son never shot it yet.

Ask Josie Wales!

Somebody asked about power? A 45 "long" Colt loading was about 40 gr. A 44-40 was 40 gr. A Walker Colt used up to 60 grains (Not Recommended AT ALL!==Walkers had a propensity to explode or disassemble upon firing).

I use 30 grains in the field and 20 gr pellets at the range.
 
Metallurgy has come a long way from the original Walkers. Some say that explosions were partially from the Pickett bullets being loaded in backwards at times, making them into a shaped charge. Others say the metallurgical work was iffy. Regardless there are those who use modified Walker replicas today -among other things the rod is changed to a later style so as not to drop - with heavy conical bullets and and stout loads to hunt hogs. They claim power reaches .41 mag levels.

An earlier thread about how effective were these revolvers as weapons contains some good information and interesting anecdotes.
 
The Ruger Old Army is also an exceptional cap and ball revolver, and they also command high prices.

Yep... mainly because Ruger does not make them anymore. The SS, fixed sight versions command the highest... because CAS and SASS bp shooters can shoot the "Frontiersman" class with 'em. (Used to be that way... not allowing adjustable-sight BP handguns... don't know what they are currently allowing.)The ROA's can go on GB from $1,000 up to $1,400 each. That's just outrageous, IMO.

Here is a website that discusses CAS shooting of BP by a great fella, Curt Rich (aka SASS alias, Captain Baylor)....
Black Powder (& Substitutes) for Dummies
 
After doing some looking online, I saw some places that advertised cased Pietta or Uberti M1860 Army, but nobody had any in stock. I thought it might be good to get something like that since it included everything needed to start out. It also seemed like most people thought that the quality and reliability of today's Pietta and Uberti were the same for the most part.

I would not want to pay any more than the cost of the Pietta or Uberti since this would just be a "fun" thing to try. I also saw where alot of people wrote about sales at Cabela's being good. Anybody bought one on sale from Cabela's LATELY? If so, how much was it? Just wondering how good the sale really is and I also wonder how often they go on sale. Right now the Pietta 1860 Army Engraved with extra cylinder is on sale. It is regularly priced at $470 and is on sale for $320.

I saw a few minutes ago online that the local Academy Sports carried a Traditions brand.:confused: I guess that is another possibility.
 
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I started shooting black powder in a 1860 Colt replica back in 1973. I have gone through several since then and even though Pieata may have come up in quality (I am not so sure) I would and will always stick to Uberite
 
I would not want to pay any more than the cost of the Pietta or Uberti since this would just be a "fun" thing to try. I also saw where alot of people wrote about sales at Cabela's being good. Anybody bought one on sale from Cabela's LATELY? If so, how much was it? .

I paid $199 around Christmas for a Pietta 1858 with 5.5" bbl, blued, steel frame. Seems a nice gun. Cabelas has them on sale every year for Christmas I think. To just "try", I would keep an eye on website prices there and wait for a deal.
 
I have two Piettas - one a .36 Remington, the other an 1860 Army .44. Both shoot fine for me, but I don't care too much about grouping. It the hits stay on the paper at 25 yards, I'm happy. I normally use a mixture of about 2/3ds Pyrodex P and 1/3 FFG black powder for both. Ignites well, and powder fouling is not bad.
 
I have a 1860 Black Powder pistol in 44cal which I shoot on occasion. Its a real hoot to shoot and fairly accurate at 25 yards as well. I use white grease to prevent any chain fires. I also only load around 25 grms of Black Powder. Black powder will stay potent for hundreds of years basically as long as its kept dry. I mainly use No. 3 in my pistol and no. 2 in my rifles.
 
OP hope you don't mind me jumping in here and asking a few questions instead of posting something basically the same.

Funny thing is my friend and I were discussing this too not long ago after seeing some replicas at a gun show.

How powerful are they compared to today's calibers?

How exectly do you reload and how fast is it?

When you consider that this style of weaponry was state-of-the-art for a number of years, you can believe in their power and accuracy. While they are smooth bore barrels, they are still accurate to modern self-defense distances and beyond. I was say a properly loaded revolver would be somewhere approaching a light 9mm load.

As to reloading, the process is tedious. You need a "ball," a percussion cap, powder (which is measured) and lubed wads. Each chamber is loaded separately and can take about a minute per chamber, less with experience.

I have read articles where people created paper cartridges using cigarette paper, I have no personal knowledge of their effectiveness, and frankly it sounded more tedious than just a standard reload.

Many versions of these guns are available with second cylinders, to you can have up to 12 rounds available fairly quickly. It is largely a recreational firearm, though I think it's important for any firearm enthusiast to own at least one black powder gun, know how to properly load and use. I think it adds to ones appreciation of firearm ownership.

The talk of "stopping power" and "magazine capacity" sure fades when you consider these firearms were part of law enforcement and self-defense for a lot of years.

It is interesting to note that these guns are generally exempt from FFL requirements - this can be shipped straight to your door, and while it's not the ideal weapon for self--defense, it will do the trick.

Though the sale of these guns is exempt from FFL requirements, you still cannot CCW such a firearm; that would still be a violation of Federal Law unless you have the proper permits for your state.
 
Another vote for the ROA.Well worth watching for and buying. Modern engineering and materials AND American made not cheap foreign junk like so many others on the market.
Ruger_Old_Army.jpg

Steve
 
How powerful are they compared to today's calibers?

Arik... Hickok killed Dave Tutt at a distance of 75 yards with a his cap & ball .36 Colt 1851 Navy revolver. Several accounts (including Joseph Rosa, a great historian) indicate that the .36 ball traveled completely through Tutt. That's fairly impressive.

Here is a depiction by Andy Thomas...
WildBillHickokvsDaveTutt_001%20(2).jpg
 
Try Dixie Gun Works muzzleloading, blackpowder and rare antique gun supplies. as well...

I have many black powder guns: ten at last count. Some I have shot many times, some not at all:

Pietta 1858 Remington New Army in 44 cal, with target sights, great shooter.
Uberti 1866 Remington Revolving Carbine in 44 cal, fun shooter!
Traditions Kentucky Rifle - From Kit, 50 cal, fun to shoot.
CVA Kentucky Pistol - from Kit, 50 cal, fun to shoot.
CVA Pocket Police in 36 cal, never shot, steel frame, boxed.
CVA Wolf in 50 cal (Modern style, uses 209 shotgun primers).
Antique Bacon Arms Boot Pistol, 34 cal, not shootable.
Antique Maubeuge Pistol, French, early 19th century, approximately 75 cal, very weird rifling, never shot.
Wells Fargo Pocket Pistol in 31 cal. Like shooting a 22, fun!
Thompson Center 54 cal Renegade kit from the 1970s, not yet started.

Sorry, no pictures, too many other things claim my time...

I have read that the 1858 Remington replicas with brass frames are not historically accurate. If any were actually made, they were extremely few. While I wouldn't turn one down, I wouldn't consider it a shooter, preferring the strength of steel.


There is a particular satisfaction in shooting black powder that you don't seem to get from smokeless, at least for me. While I love my S&Ws, including an AR15, 4 revolvers, and 2 semi-auto pistols, the black powder is what lights me up.
 
A properly set up cap& ball revolver will put centerfires to shame for accuracy, 25 yard groups of one inch are common. However, none come out of the box "properly set up". Regardless of brand nearly all .44's have bore diameters of .451-.452". The chamber diameters however vary quite a bit, mostly on the small side. If the maker recommends a .451" ball you can bet his chambers are well under bore size. I had one Remington repo with chambers so small that a ball forced in and pushed back out would literally fall through the bore. The first and greatest improvement you can make toward accuracy is to ream the chambers to at least .451" and .452" is better. You then will use a ball of at least .454 and .457" is even better.
As to power, figure the .44 C&B is comparable to a .38 special. The .36 Navy over a full load of powder is much like a .380 ACP, the .36 pocket models are like a .32 special and the little .31's are about like a .22 short. The Walkers and Dragoons do pack a bit more punch but still fall short of a .45 Colt.
 
I have two Pietta 1851 36 cal Navys, an historically inaccurate (but very accurate) Pietta 44 cal Navy (I like the grip more than the 1860 Army) and a Pietta 44 Remington.

I also have a 54 cal Lymans Great Plains Rifle.

It makes for a slow, relaxed afternoon shooting steel.

I cast round balls for all of them and I make my own black powder.
 
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