I have an Yugo M57 in 7.62 X 25.

I thought it was a foolish move when Russia abandoned this potent .30 caliber pistol/subgun round in favor of the 9X18 Makarov pisiol shell. Come on, now! Less power than a 9mm Parabellum; barely ahead of a .380 ACP? What's the point?

The 9 X 25 with an 85-grain FMJ leaving a TT-33 at about 1650 fps, yielding 511 fpe at the muzzle handily defeats level IIA body armor,and is very controllable to boot! Mine is accurate as it can be, and the muzzle blast will usually scare the devil out of any surviving assailants!

Does anyone else like this cartridge/pistol combination?

I really liked my Zastava 57, but the tiny sights and limited choice of anything besides S&B/Win fmj ammo got old for me. It's a cool design, loved the removable FCG.

I have clocked rounds nearing 1,600 FPS.
Hollow point are available, but who has tested these bullets?

surfgun said:

I have clocked rounds nearing 1,600 FPS.
Hollow point are available, but who has tested these bullets?

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I don't know, but I have watched videos of 86-grain military surplus zip through panels of IIA body armor. The Soviet round of 1930 martials on into the 21st century... 85 years later.

I have a WWII Russian TT 33 GI bringback, a Vietnam GI Chinese tokarev bringback, and a couple of imports, a Polish and a Rumanian. Also have a Czech model 52 in the same caliber. I have shot all of them, and agree that they are powerful rounds, and fun to play with, and in a pinch would serve to protect the ranch, but... I think that most of us have more modern choices to use for self defense. As to why the Russians switched over, I don't honestly know. I have spent time in Russia, and have friends there, read and speak a little Russian, but their culture and especially the military culture are different than ours. Not to say better or worse, just that they often view things from a different angle than westerners. One trait is that under the communist regime, there was very little incentive to design things just to have something new. It was thought to be better to spend time improving what already existed. You know, becUse there was no capitalist incentive to bring out a new product for profit. That's one reason that they are still using the same 7.62x54 mm rifle cartrige that they started using 120 or so years ago.

To get back to your original post, I seem to remember reading why the change was made, but for the life of me can't recall. I have a lot of reference material, though, so I will try to get back with the thread on this subject. In addition to Smiths and Colts, East Block firearms are one of my interests.

surfgun said:

I have clocked rounds nearing 1,600 FPS.
Hollow point are available, but who has tested these bullets?

Click to expand...

The fools that opposed the Soviet Union and their minions, Bubbula!

I still think that these 1903 Browning-patterened pistols are:

a) a good value for the money,

b) "hell on wheels" (when loaded with hollowpoint bullets to military pressure specifications), and

c) easily concealed as well as a nasty surprise when used as a self-defense pistol!

les.b said:

To get back to your original post, I seem to remember reading why the change was made, but for the life of me can't recall. I have a lot of reference material, though, so I will try to get back with the thread on this subject. In addition to Smiths and Colts, East Block firearms are one of my interests.

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I just finished reading the 9 X17 Makarov Wikipaedia lines which said that the Soviets wanted a pistol round that could be fired in a blowback action. They also wanted a pistol that had:

a) a fixed barrel for inexpensive manufacture and ease of operation.

b) they also required the handgun possess/use a .567" diameter bullet so that it couldn't be used in NATO arms, should the ammunition be captured.

If you are going to use FMJ ammunition, and you want one pistol to serve as a last-ditch defensive weapon for officers AND as a standard handgun for all the police who seldom use a weapon, then the change to the Makarov makes some sense. The Makarov is easier to train people on (especially to carry safely), and probably causes less hearing damage. Remember, many European police were carrying 7.65mm (.32ACP) automatics such as the Walther PP or FN 1922 at this time, so the Mak was an improvement on that. You are quite right about the Tokarev's penetration, but once the Soviets had moved away from the submachine gun and it's cartridge as a mass weapon and adopted the AK-47 for nearly all troops, something like the Makarov made sense. At the time of it's adoption, most American police carried a six-shot revolver with .38 Special RN lead bullets. Is there really any difference in on-the-street practical accuracy or effectiveness?
I'd be happy to play with either one!

Darkenfast said:

Is there really any difference in on-the-street practical accuracy or effectiveness?
I'd be happy to play with either one!

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Yes, there is a difference. The Makarov generally uses a 95-grain FMJ bullet travelling at 1000 fps, yielding 211 fpe, while the .38 S&W Special starts with a 158-grain lead projectile at 770 fps generating 208 fpe.

The ligher bullet of the Makarov tends to shed it's energy more rapidly than the .38 Special.

Momentum is on the side of the .38, as well as it's capability to use heavier loads without damaging the arm. The "blowback" operation of the Makarov limits it's ability to tolerate higher-pressure loads. After a certain point, your action must have te ability to lock, before you can push the projectile to higher velocities. Essentially, it s limited to ".380 +p" levels of performance... nothing more.

It is, in fact, nothing but a high perfromance "pocket pistol" round.

I love the cartridge. Use to shoot the south African puma or something at almost 2000 fps and closer to 600 ft-lbs. Unfortunately those days are gone and I sold all my 7.62 tok

If someone came out with a reliable double action Glock type handgun that fires a hp 7.62 tok at original velocity with cheap ammo I'd be all over that

Captain O said:

Yes, there is a difference. The Makarov generally uses a 95-grain FMJ bullet travelling at 1000 fps, yielding 211 fpe, while the .38 S&W Special starts with a 158-grain lead projectile at 770 fps generating 208 fpe.

The ligher bullet of the Makarov tends to shed it's energy more rapidly than the .38 Special.

Momentum is on the side of the .38, as well as it's capability to use heavier loads without damaging the arm. The "blowback" operation of the Makarov limits it's ability to tolerate higher-pressure loads. After a certain point, your action must have te ability to lock, before you can push the projectile to higher velocities. Essentially, it s limited to ".380 +p" levels of performance... nothing more.

It is, in fact, nothing but a high perfromance "pocket pistol" round.

Click to expand...

Do you seriously think that anyone shot with either one at the usual range would be able to tell the difference? Remember, I'm not comparing Makarov service ammunition with +p loads or with hollowpoint loads, I'm comparing it with what the vast majority of cops actually carried in the mid-50's. Once you get into more modern ammunition, the .38 Special will of course pull ahead. But a 26-ounce 8-shot pistol that is way more compact than a police revolver was not that unreasonable a choice at the time. As for the military, I think that the Browning High Power was the best offering at the time. But, given the REALITY of how seldom a Soviet officer would actually use his handgun, something of that nature just wasn't worth the effort.

Darkenfast said:

Do you seriously think that anyone shot with either one at the usual range would be able to tell the difference? Remember, I'm not comparing Makarov service ammunition with +p loads or with hollowpoint loads, I'm comparing it with what the vast majority of cops actually carried in the mid-50's. Once you get into more modern ammunition, the .38 Special will of course pull ahead. But a 26-ounce 8-shot pistol that is way more compact than a police revolver was not that unreasonable a choice at the time. As for the military, I think that the Browning High Power was the best offering at the time. But, given the REALITY of how seldom a Soviet officer would actually use his handgun, something of that nature just wasn't worth the effort.

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In the 1950's the US police were going to SWC bullets because they were more effective than the RNL. (At the recommendation of Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan).

Remember:

a) shot placement is king.

b) Penetration is queen.

Everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins.

American cops were shooting their handguns more than the Soviets were against a disarmed populace. Those are the cold, hard facts.

Actually, I think the cold, hard facts are that:
1. The vast majority of cops in the U.S. in the 1950s carried RNL .38 Specials.
2. Shot placement with minimal training isn't going to be any better with a M&P or Colt in DA than with the Mak at normal combat ranges.
3. Penetration with both the 9X18mm FMJ and the 158 gr. RNL .38 Special is adequate. Neither demonstrates great "stopping power".

Tokarev 7.62X25

The Tok round is a "blast" to shoot This is my all-time favorite(as in FUN) range gun; a 1955 CHICOM model 54 Korean war vintage

3482jl said:

The Tok round is a "blast" to shoot This is my all-time favorite(as in FUN) range gun; a 1955 CHICOM model 54 Korean war vintage

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Nice condition for an "old lady". (she's probably 65-70 years old)? Beautiful!

John Moses Browning's influence is so obvious, isn't it?

I love mine...







Yugo firearm factories took Soviet pattern weapons, and made them a little better. They added an extra round and extended the short grip with the Tokarev, and similar can be said with the SKS (having a practice grenade and blanks, it is cool [emoji41]).

The Tokarev, itself, is a slim powerful pistol (with correct ammo). Definitely one of those pistols you want in your safe.

Apparently the HP's will expand to .4" in wet news print.
I finally got some 7.62X25 Tokarev JHP and tested 'em - Page 3

This hand loader has gotten some impressive results.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-245469.html

I had a recent commercial model. I even had custom wood grips from a guy inn Hungary. I sold it though. The cost to try to find someone to put on better sights did not seem worth it. The commercial Yugo models have some added safety features, but in general Western gunwriters have opined for decades that the Tokarevs are not particularly safe to carry with a round in the chamber.

I have been so tempted to pick up one of these. They can be had for like $250 new from Zastava. You guys are pushing me towards it harder now!

For custom 7.62x25 ammo go to; Reeds Ammo.

What are some waiting for these are in excellent++++++++++ condition.

I was told these will shoot flat out to 100yds. These are so fast the bullet proof vests don't stop them.