FBI Request for Proposal for new 9mm pistols

As I am sure most of you already know, the FBI this month issued a Request for Proposal for new 9mm pistols. The details are at this site:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...eceeb93fabb2f163118a889e278&tab=core&_cview=0

When you go to the above site, look for the "solicitation" and click on the link.

I have gone through the RFP and created an Excel spreadsheet showing the requirements, etc., in the RFP, which is 111 pages long. I have then set out a comparison between Glock, S&W, SIG Sauer, and FN to see which pistols have the required characteristics.

Bottom line: Not one pistol fits all requirements without some modification. That said, some are closer than others. Some issues will require significant change to comply (for example, finger grooves are not allowed on the frame); while other issues are easily rectified (for example, two different lengths of magazine release buttons, standard and extended slide stops, high visibility color for magazine followers, etc.).

I wish S&W luck with a contract that may not be lucrative, but for which residual sales will certainly be massive as buyers and other LE agencies often want to buy what the FBI uses.

I also caution all who participate that a failure/rejection will be damaging to the reputation of any maker, but especially to one that is selected, and thereafter unceremoniously dumped, as happened to S&W with the 1076. And, that was not even the fault of S&W.

What did you come up with for a top five?

Here are some thoughts on conditions that stood out to me:

The magazine catch shall be activated by depressing the catch with a lateral movement by the shooter’s thumb/finger.
It is not allowable to have a magazine catch which is activated by a downward movement.

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Excludes the HK.

Firing pin/Striker fired only.

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Excludes all of the Sigs except the P320.

The slide stop lever should be easily manipulated by both left and right handed shooters.
Ambidextrous slide stop levers are permitted.

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Permitted but not required keeps the playing field large.

MANUAL EXTERNAL SAFETY
None allowed. Only safeties which are disengaged by the rearward movement of the trigger are allowed (i.e., passive).
DECOCKING LEVER
None allowed.
GRIP SAFETY
None allowed.

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As above, keeps the playing field large.

SIGHTS
Material shall be made of steel and capable of withstanding:
20,000 round endurance firing cycle.
One handed immediate action drills where the shooter will utilize the front edge of the rear sight by supporting it against the edge of a ballistic shield, holster, etc., and cycling the slide.

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Interesting. If Glock doesn't offer steel sights, I guess it's an easy enough upgrade for them to stay in the game.

The sights delivered on the pistols shall be Trijicon, Bright and Tough NightTM Sights, or similar.
....SNIP....
It is preferred these sights be the Trijicon HD night sights (GL101O) or similar high visibility sights.

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Well, that makes it easier. Are these already OEM on any pistols?

FRAME/RECEIVER
Frames which allow for different hand sizes are required. Regardless of how each Contractor accommodates different hand sizes they must be able to support at least 3 sizes commonly referred to as small, medium and large.

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Advantage Sig P320, or so it would seem until:

Two acceptable methods of accommodating for different hand sizes are:
Multiple Frame Sizes
Two alternate sizes must be available and supplied with each pistol.
Grip/Frame Inserts
Two alternate sizes must be available and supplied with each pistol.

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Sig would have to ship EACH pistol with three whole frames? Inserts would have the advantage in cost.

Slide must fully cover the barrel (with the exception of the chamber portion of the barrel) allowing for no more than 0.25” of the muzzle to be exposed

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Beretta's out.

52.252-2 CLAUSES INCORPORATED BY REFERENCE (FEB 1998)

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This clause means the government (probably DCMA) can access their manufacturing facilities to conduct Quality Management System audits and perform inspection/acceptance duties.

Interesting. No safeties other than the trigger.

Speaking of what people want to buy what the FBI has, I think i'll be getting Trijicon HDs. No idea what Trijicon 8 HD is though.

Mainsail:

As indicated, no pistol that I could find meets all requirements of the RFP. Remember that we are not just talking about the Class I and Class II pistol (basically a duty pistol and a longslide option - subcompacts, such as the Glock 26 or the M&P Compact are ruled out by barrel length and magazine capacity, among other things), but inert (Red handle) and Simunitions (Blue) pistols, and parts, tools, armorer courses, etc.

As far as pistols which are close, I came up with Glock 19 and 17, S&W M&P 9 and M&P 9 Longslide; SIG 320 in Compact (15 rd.), Carry (17 rd.), and Full (17 rd.) size grip modules, and FNS 9 and FNS 9 Longslide.

I ruled out HK's VP9 because there is only one size presently available, and because of the paddle magazine release.

I ruled out the Walther PPQ also, even though the PPQ M2 and PPQ M2 Longslide come close. The PPQ only has a capacity of 15 rounds, and the Class II pistol requires at least 16 rounds. That may not be a big deal, but it might. The reason is that the contract forbids magazine extensions or "+" adapters, etc.

Glock would have to modify its Gen 4 molds or create new ones as the contract forbids finger grooves on the frame.

As to your comments, I will offer my thoughts:

The prohibition on grip safeties would require a re-design of the Springfield XD-M.

Glock has a steel sight option, but the FBI wants specific Trijicon night sights, and Trijicon makes both models for the Glock, M&P and the P320.

As regards the exposed barrel and Beretta being out, Beretta's existing models are not striker fired, so they were out anyway. That said, don't count out the Beretta APX. I think they are behind the curve as there is apparently only one size in the APX line at this time, but it seems to meet as many or more of the requirements as the others, and as it has not been put into mass production yet, they can make changes before it goes into production. A long shot, but you never know.

Shawn

ClayCow said:

Interesting. No safeties other than the trigger.

Speaking of what people want to buy what the FBI has, I think i'll be getting Trijicon HDs. No idea what Trijicon 8 HD is though.

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It is Trijicon HD. The "8" you are seeing in Part I, Section C.4.14.g is a footnote, as in footnote 8. Footnote 8 relates back to footnote 7 (the "Ibid."), and it is simply a reference to Trijicon's address.

One handed immediate action drills where the shooter will utilize the front edge of the rear sight by supporting it against the edge of a ballistic shield, holster, etc., and cycling the slide.

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I found this requirement interesting and somewhat ironic. The thing that came immediately to mind when I read it was, "They're remembering and applying a learned lesson from the Miami shootout" but the caliber choice would suggest otherwise.

Mainsail said:

"They're remembering and applying a learned lesson from the Miami shootout" but the caliber choice would suggest otherwise.

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I think I sense an invitation to a............... CALIBER WAR!!!

It is curious the Feds would circle back to the 9mm after, as some others have pointed out, the 9 was singled out as the big reason things went the way they, (sadly), did in Miami. That said, I'm a little baffled about the interest, bordering on obsession in some cases, as to what various local, state and federal types carry. I've never based a personal purchase decision on what the Feds or LEOs are issued.

Actually the Miami/Dade Shootout was an ammunition failure. The FBI made specific requirements of the ammo they wanted, the ammo performed exactly as required and didn't do the job.
Everyone always wants whatever the FBI demands and the FBI has a terrible record of success in gunfights.

muzzleblast said:

I think I sense an invitation to a............... CALIBER WAR!!!

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Please, let's not. . . .

I started this thread about the possible launching platform, NOT about caliber. The caliber decision was made in late 2013 when the FBI selected its new 9mm ammunition. They had trials, selected the caliber and load, and now they are seeking a new pistol platform that works with that load.

So, please let's keep it focused on the launcher, not the cartridge. If we go to a caliber war, the thread will degenerate into the usual commentary. Let's not get this thread closed by the mods!

Donn said:

I've never based a personal purchase decision on what the Feds or LEOs are issued.

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Nor have most of us, and we are lucky to be able to choose what we want.

That said, I am very concerned that those who protect us have the right equipment for the job because they are the ones putting their lives on the line.

The FBI may not get in many shootouts - one is too many, but the local LEOs and agencies who tend to follow the FBI do get into many dangerous shootouts against all sorts of bad people. I want all of our LEO people, federal, state, local, whether in uniform or plain clothes, to have good equipment so they have a better chance of going home to their wives and children at night.

In addition, the choice of FBI pistols is also worthy of discussion because whoever gets the contract will doubtless sell many times the number of pistols to other LEOs and agencies, not to mention the private sector, as are sold to the FBI. Let us hope S&W can put a big win in its column with the FBI contract.

Obstructed bore test?

OBSTRUCTED BORE TEST PASS/FAIL
a) Two pistols from each class will be selected for this test.
i) Each pistol will be cleaned & lubricated per the Offeror's recommended specifications.
b) A service projectile will be lodged in the barrel so as to locate its base approx. 1” forward of a live chambered cartridge. The live service cartridge (54227) will be fired into the lodged projectile to determine the outcome of this event and to what, if any, extent the shooter would be injured.
c) The test will be recorded via the use of a high speed camera and witness panels. If it is determined the outcome of this event would reasonably result in serious physical injury to the shooter, by either of the two pistols, this will constitute a failure of this test. A failure of any pistol in this test will result in the Offeror being eliminated from further consideration.

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Mainsail said:

Obstructed bore test?

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Yes, a good quality bore should survive this. Remember that Ruger took its "tank tough" P85 and intentionally put a hardened steel rod down the barrel after threading it at the muzzle end to secure the rod in the barrel, and then they fired several rounds. Damage was so insignificant that a new barrel and one bent part (extractor, perhaps?) were replaced, and the gun was put back in service like nothing had ever happened.

This was about the time the military was having trouble with their Berettas blowing slides back off the frame into the shooter's face. After the obstructed bore test, they cut away a big chunk of the slide so that only a thin strip of metal on one side, if I recall, held the front section of the slide to the rear section. They then fired 5,000 rounds of NATO ammo without incident. The Ruger slide, cut nearly in half, did not come apart.

Shawn, that you for taking the time and making the effort to analyze the new RFP. That has saved the rest of us a serious amount of time. However, I take serious issue with your implication in the first post that S&W was not at fault in the demise of the FBI 1076. I have spent years researching the saga of the FBI 1076 and have found that S&W shares a sizable portion of the responsibility for the failure of the pistol. As received by the FBI the pistols could easily be placed in two categories. They were either 100% and terrific reliable handguns or quite simply they were junk suffering multiple failures during the course of firing 2,500 rounds during New Agents Training. And the ratio was roughly 50/50. For example, S&W modified the barrel feed ramp to remedy the failure to feed problem; changed the heat treating protocol to remedy the broken extractor problem; modified the ejector to reduce breakage; redesigned and strengthened the trigger play spring to preclude breakage; and changed the magazine follower (yellow) material to reduce cracks (white). There were other problems as well including he unconscionable delay in addressing the FBI's concerns about the pistol. That failure to take prompt and effective action resulted in, among other things, the street Agent's loss of confidence in the weapon. S&W's failure to take the FBI's executive management seriously could only be described as suicidal. The FBI was by no means blameless. Actions by several FBI employees were illogical, irrational and often just plain ignorant. But it is a mistake to assign all the blame for the demise of the FBI 1076 to the Bureau. Based on the loss of confidence issue alone the FBI had no choice but to return the pistols to S&W under the contract's warranty clause.

Another 9mm? Again? I'm not buying anymore 9mm pistols. Another 1911 in 45acp maybe.

The pictures I see of the Beretta APX show finger grooves, so I guess they're done.

What color does it have to be??

shawn mccarver said:

Nor have most of us, and we are lucky to be able to choose what we want.

That said, I am very concerned that those who protect us have the right equipment for the job because they are the ones putting their lives on the line.

The FBI may not get in many shootouts - one is too many, but the local LEOs and agencies who tend to follow the FBI do get into many dangerous shootouts against all sorts of bad people. I want all of our LEO people, federal, state, local, whether in uniform or plain clothes, to have good equipment so they have a better chance of going home to their wives and children at night.

In addition, the choice of FBI pistols is also worthy of discussion because whoever gets the contract will doubtless sell many times the number of pistols to other LEOs and agencies, not to mention the private sector, as are sold to the FBI. Let us hope S&W can put a big win in its column with the FBI contract.

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I hope that, when the rfp for the holster is issued, that you post it amongst the holster threads. Though it's mighty unlikely I would ever be in a position to be a bidder, like you I enjoy working things out from documents. And I've actually a good track record in coming up with the winning design including for the FBI. But then so much has gone beyond even Kydex and into moulded plastic holsters that I'd expect it to be only a fun exercise for me

P.S. By the way, rfps are often written around an existing product, even if it's only an approved prototype ;-) New players may not actually have a chance; I.e., the winner may have already been chosen. In my experience.

Donn said:

It is curious the Feds would circle back to the 9mm after, as some others have pointed out, the 9 was singled out as the big reason things went the way they, (sadly), did in Miami. That said, I'm a little baffled about the interest, bordering on obsession in some cases, as to what various local, state and federal types carry. I've never based a personal purchase decision on what the Feds or LEOs are issued.

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Agencies do it because of the economy of scale more than anything else. Big contracts make for cheaper bulk purchases by agencies.

rednichols,
Also based on experience I couldn't agree with you more. Despite volumes of government contracting regulations it is still possible, perhaps inevitable, that the players on both sides game the system. It infuriates me. I wait with baited breath for the FBI's selection but I deem it a foregone conclusion that the FBI with select Glock to manufacture its new 9mm pistol. It embarrasses me to admit that.