FBI Request for Proposal for new 9mm pistols

[tops]

Me also. They change guns and bullets more than I change clothes. Larry

 

[gaucho1]

What color does it have to be??

Tactical...................

 

[Texas Star]

I won't buy one or any striker-fired gun. I think it's a shame the Bureau makes agents carry the issued pistol models even if they buy their own.

They used to have more choice.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Shawn, that you for taking the time and making the effort to analyze the new RFP. That has saved the rest of us a serious amount of time. However, I take serious issue with your implication in the first post that S&W was not at fault in the demise of the FBI 1076. I have spent years researching the saga of the FBI 1076 and have found that S&W shares a sizable portion of the responsibility for the failure of the pistol. As received by the FBI the pistols could easily be placed in two categories. They were either 100% and terrific reliable handguns or quite simply they were junk suffering multiple failures during the course of firing 2,500 rounds during New Agents Training. And the ratio was roughly 50/50. For example, S&W modified the barrel feed ramp to remedy the failure to feed problem; changed the heat treating protocol to remedy the broken extractor problem; modified the ejector to reduce breakage; redesigned and strengthened the trigger play spring to preclude breakage; and changed the magazine follower (yellow) material to reduce cracks (white). There were other problems as well including he unconscionable delay in addressing the FBI's concerns about the pistol. That failure to take prompt and effective action resulted in, among other things, the street Agent's loss of confidence in the weapon. S&W's failure to take the FBI's executive management seriously could only be described as suicidal. The FBI was by no means blameless. Actions by several FBI employees were illogical, irrational and often just plain ignorant. But it is a mistake to assign all the blame for the demise of the FBI 1076 to the Bureau. Based on the loss of confidence issue alone the FBI had no choice but to return the pistols to S&W under the contract's warranty clause.

Thank you for taking the time to give good, detailed information on the unfortunate saga of the 1076. I certainly appreciate the fact that you took the time to make such a well reasoned response in such a fair way, giving both sides. It is always a pleasure to read a post which is made with facts, even if it takes issue with one of mine! Thanks again.

 

[Faulkner]

What color does it have to be??

Muddy girl.

 

[kbm6893]

Actually the Miami/Dade Shootout was an ammunition failure. The FBI made specific requirements of the ammo they wanted, the ammo performed exactly as required and didn't do the job.
Everyone always wants whatever the FBI demands and the FBI has a terrible record of success in gunfights.

A good friend of mine is a retired FBI agent and the ammo was the smallest error of the shootout. One agent had his gun stuck under his leg and when the cars crashed he lost it under the seat and never found it during the shootout. The shotguns were in the trunk and difficult to get to. Those who were using revolvers were mostly shooting 38, although they were .357 revolvers and could have been using .357. Several of the agents weren't wearing body armor (or at least not secured. I believe Agent Grogan did not have his strapped on, just thrown over his torso). And 9MM ammo has sure Come a long way since 1988.

Not speaking ill of the agents involved. They did the best they could under the rules they had at the time, but to blame the outcome on the 9MM ammo that only half of them were carrying, with the other half shooting 38 special ammo, at least one of whom only had a 5 shot j frame, is a bit of a stretch. Not gonna win a gunfight carrying revolvers when the bad guys have carbines and shotguns, and nothing to lose in using them.

 

[Dennis The B]

A good friend of mine is a retired FBI agent and the ammo was the smallest error of the shootout. One agent had his gun stuck under his leg and when the cars crashed he lost it under the seat and never found it during the shootout. The shotguns were in the trunk and difficult to get to. Those who were using revolvers were mostly shooting 38, although they were .357 revolvers and could have been using .357. Several of the agents weren't wearing body armor (or at least not secured. I believe Agent Grogan did not have his strapped on, just thrown over his torso). And 9MM ammo has sure Come a long way since 1988.

Not speaking ill of the agents involved. They did the best they could under the rules they had at the time, but to blame the outcome on the 9MM ammo that only half of them were carrying, with the other half shooting 38 special ammo, at least one of whom only had a 5 shot j frame, is a bit of a stretch. Not gonna win a gunfight carrying revolvers when the bad guys have carbines and shotguns, and nothing to lose in using them.

The standard issue revolver ammunition at the time, was the Remington 158gr LSWCHP +P round. .357 Magnum ammunition had to be approved for agents to use it.

The tactics used by the FBI for a felony stop left a lot to be desired, and it's one reason why things headed south so quickly. The agents improvised the entire stop, and it gave the two BG's an opportunity to start the shooting.

It's also clear that the FBI wasn't expecting a shootout that morning. They were conducting "rolling stakeouts" on information that the two BG's may rob one of the local banks. That split the FBI teams.

Ammunition was a factor, in that the 9mm ammo used was the 1st generation Winchester 115gr Silver Tip. The Silver Tip had a reputation for being under-powered. The +P ammo fired out of either a J frame S&W, or the Model 13, will not perform to its potential because the revolver barrel is a bit short to get maximum velocity for expansion.

 

[kbm6893]

The standard issue revolver ammunition at the time, was the Remington 158gr LSWCHP +P round. .357 Magnum ammunition had to be approved for agents to use it.

The tactics used by the FBI for a felony stop left a lot to be desired, and it's one reason why things headed south so quickly. The agents improvised the entire stop, and it gave the two BG's an opportunity to start the shooting.

It's also clear that the FBI wasn't expecting a shootout that morning. They were conducting "rolling stakeouts" on information that the two BG's may rob one of the local banks. That split the FBI teams.

Ammunition was a factor, in that the 9mm ammo used was the 1st generation Winchester 115gr Silver Tip. The Silver Tip had a reputation for being under-powered. The +P ammo fired out of either a J frame S&W, or the Model 13, will not perform to its potential because the revolver barrel is a bit short to get maximum velocity for expansion.

Right. But getting approval for 357 was not a problem. But none of them chose to get authorized to carry them. And I know the car stop wasn't textbook. They improvised and it went south. Just saying that pointing the finger at the 9MM ammo as the reason for the disastrous results is foolish.

 

[Decker]

Back to the topic...

The new FBI guns are to be very picky as to specific features, and one of those features is DAO, the default only that can be accepted due to the (no) safety or decocker requirements.

Now look at it another way and realize that the bad guys have absolutely no limitation as to their choice of weapon whether in caliber or type of action or safety.

So, it seems to me that the FBI is mandating that their agents be outgunned by pretty much any bad guy who has a pistol that can be fired more accurately (single action), might have better sights, and of larger or more "efficient" (read larger or very high velocity) ammunition types.

Sounds like a typical government cluster to me.

 

[M29since14]

rednichols,
Also based on experience I couldn't agree with you more. Despite volumes of government contracting regulations it is still possible, perhaps inevitable, that the players on both sides game the system. It infuriates me. I wait with baited breath for the FBI's selection but I deem it a foregone conclusion that the FBI with select Glock to manufacture its new 9mm pistol...

My guess too. We'll see.

 

[American1776]

I'm not surprised that the FBI is going back to the 9mm.

As to the Miami shootout disaster: we saw a similar 'blame the equipment' mentality after a LE disaster during the aftermath of the Munich Olympic Games terrorist attacks. After the German police failed to rescue the hostages, there was a large overhaul of their pistols, which were at the time, 7,65mm pocket type pistols. The Germans demanded a 9mm, an 8 shot gun, no thumb safety. The HK P7, Walther P5, and Sig P6 were the resultant pistols.

With the FBI shootout, an autopsy showed that one of the agent's 9mm Silvertips had entered the arm and chest cavity of one of the killers (Matiz?) early in the gunfight, but it had stopped just short of the heart. The killer went on to commit more carnage.

They made the 10mm, then found quickly that most agents could not handle this 'magnum' like auto loader. Then they made it the 10mm 'lite', then finally the .40 S&W round. The .40 S&W still has a reputation of being a snappy handful for non-gun enthusiasts (which are a great many LEO's).

Physics is physics. Either you can have a pistol that everyone can shoot well and give up a little in the muzzle energy department, or you can go up in muzzle energy and have a gun that is harder to shoot well. There's a reason the .38 spl. was such a popular LE round for so long, despite its reputation as an impotent fight stopper with early round nose rounds. It was easy to shoot for people who didn't like to practice a whole lot, and the guns were easy to carry all day.

9mm with proper loads is a good fight stopper. It is cheap for practice, and is light in recoil. It doesn't beat up the pistols like 40 or .357 sig. Makes sense

 

[aarontart]

I'm betting they already have their eye on one gun. From the sound of it, that gun is either a Sig p320 or M&P. I have only known one FBI agent and he loved his Glock so I am surprised about the no finger grooves to knock them out.

 

[66snub]

Well, the FBI, along with the Military, do their selecting in very similar ways. Always remember, they have to get a platform that is very easy to train to a very large number of end-users. That's going to mean;

1. No extra levers/buttons performing redundant/superfluous functions,

2. No controls of the gun that move in non-traditional directions/methods,

3. No fire control systems that have multiple modes of operation (DA/Sa).

In my experience, military and civilian occupations that require the use of a firearm, by-and-large, do not provide enough regular training for their personnel to get really (I mean intimately) familiar with their issued weapon. Remember, the weapon is only going to work as well as the dummy that it was issued to!

 

[66snub]

I'm betting they already have their eye on one gun. From the sound of it, that gun is either a Sig p320 or M&P. I have only known one FBI agent and he loved his Glock so I am surprised about the no finger grooves to knock them out.

I find this odd, as well. I've put thousands of rounds through Glocks over the years, and even with small hands, they don't bother me at all.

 

[Dennis The B]

I'm betting they already have their eye on one gun. From the sound of it, that gun is either a Sig p320 or M&P. I have only known one FBI agent and he loved his Glock so I am surprised about the no finger grooves to knock them out.

Many with "atypical" fingers find that finger grooves create a problem with the hand hold. If your fingers don't fall naturally with the grooves, then you won't be very comfortable with the pistol.

PS - That's one of the reasons I don't like Glocks; that and the fact that my large palm, short finger stature doesn't play nice with double stack guns.

 

[rednichols]

And so consider the possibility that the "no finger stalls" on the grip has been inserted to 'block the Glock'. An influential competitor can, and has, have this power over the process. At Bianchi we were successful, for example, in having many a police holster spec written to specify the exact Craftool brand basket pattern, knowing that our competitors such as Bucheimer used different ones.

 

[sigp220.45]

Wow, a lot of bad info in an otherwise good thread.

As to the issue of the number of FBI gunfights and a supposed poor track record - I've been an agent for 24 years, and a firearms instructor for most of that time. The Bureau averages about 10 shooting incidents a year - admittedly not a lot for 14000 agents, that's still a couple of hundred in my time. I'm not aware of any that we "lost". We've had agents killed, but good guys are going to pay the price sometimes. All law enforcement agencies lose guys, but it doesn't mean they lose gunfights. I do know we've killed a hell of lot more of them than they have of us.

4/11/86 has been beaten to death on this and every other forum on the internet. I came in five years after it happened, and even then there were lots of lessons learned still being worked out and applied. To the general public (and especially the gun world) the whole thing was blamed on one 9mm Silvertip launched by Jerry Dove. Inside the Bureau there was massive soul searching and changes in tactics, training, and equipment. Its been almost 30 years, and we've arrested a lot of bad guys since then, without any similar occurrences. That would have played out a lot differently today - a SWAT or HRT roll most likely - due to the sacrifices made and lessons learned that dark day.

The "agents couldn't handle the mighty 10mm" thing has somehow gained internet credence. I've said it here before - no "full-power" 10mm ammo was ever issued to agents. The ammo gurus started with the 10mm cartridge and a ton of ballistic gel, then boosted the velocity of the 180 grain bullet until it did what they wanted. Then they stopped and said Hey, Federal - make us a few million of these.

The original idea was to have a semi-auto version of the .38/357 combo. Regular 10mm for everyday use, with the option to go to more powerful rounds should the need arise. The 1076 came and went and that angle was never developed. The .40 came about, and we adopted it.

Now the ammo gurus say the 9mm will do whatever the .40 will, and its cheaper. So for the next go 'round we'll get 9mms.

Guys who have .40s will keep .40s, unless they want to switch. New guys will get 9mms. As .40s retire or break, they'll be replaced by 9mms.

Doesn't matter to me, my Sig is grandfathered in, and I'll reach my Bureau expiration date before they drop it.

As an agent, I appreciate all the interest generated by our guns. But the Bureau doesn't issue guns or ammo to other agencies, so everyone is still free to buy whatever guns and ammunition they want to use.

We still have 10mms, by the way. They hold 30 rounds and shoot full auto.

 

[colt_saa]

We still have 10mms, by the way. They hold 30 rounds and shoot full auto.

I need to get a 2 shot burst FCG for this one

The new ammo is Federal 190JHPs that leave the MP5/10 at over 1200FPS. 30 rounds can be sent down range in just over 2 seconds

 

[federali]

The FBI "Elitist" Model

I recall the exacting and daunting specifications demanded by the FBI HRT teams when they selected Model 1911s perhaps 20 years ago. Yet, whatever manufacturer lands the FBI contract wins free advertising and prestige that can assure them continued success.
So, despite seemingly impossible-to-meet specifications, all the big boys are gonna try.

 

[Tom K]

Requirement number one - the gun goes "bang" every time.

All other requirements - inconsequential fluff.