Gentlemen - It's been awhile since I've posted anything - Hope everyone is well and collecting away at things we enjoy!

This came to me via a friend's collection - He had it for over 20 years - It was part of a huge Vietnam collection from an advanced collector out of Ohio -


I've ran a component listing -

Vietnamese name on butt stock – An improvised rear sight – Improvised front barrel band holding sling – Improvised handguard –


The beauty is that it came with the little gem pictured at the end - I currently do not have the launcher - It is sitting outside of CA -


Please tell me about my Carbine -


























And this little gem came with it –

Interesting Vietnamese name. Looks like Huang is claiming to be Viet Cong. I could be wrong.

Very cool little carbine!

Very nice...
Is that a live round I see holding the sling into the cutout on the butt?

Interesting that there is no bayonet mount on it. AFAIK all M1 carbines, in US possession, were fitted with one beginning late in WWII and continuing afterward.

Can't tell for sure but judging by the rear sight and front barrel band, this carbine may have started life as a folding stock paratrooper model.

The only part missing on the barrel band, is the sling "loop", which looks replaced with one from a com-block weapon. If you check the threads on the nut and bolt, I'm willing to wager the are ASE, meaning they are from this country! It also appears galvanized, a no-no for third world and com-block.

I don't see anything "Improvised" about the hand guard, seems in line with the 15 or so that I've owned.

The grenade launcher appears very similar to Spanish after market parts I have in my junk drawer! The little wing nuts will be a major clue as to the origin. Launching grenades is very hard on the wrist area and usually leave splits along the grain on larger rifles (these seem to be missing), which is why the US and allies didn't use M-1's for that function.

The rear sight is like none I've ever seen, but it looks very professional!

Why would a Viet Cong or Viet Mein solider write his name in European script instead of Vietnamese?

I think the magazine is in unusually good condition for a weapon drug through the jungle. Also look for LEAD build up in the gas piston. The VC used cast bullets in reloads (very surprisingly). Lead will build up and oxidize to a white color as opposed to green from copper. The round that is replacing the oiler at the rear of the sling looks like a lead bullet. (A point in your favor.) Check that primer, look for a primer pocket that is swaged or reamed to seat a new primer (if so, it is an American reload)

I think you have a very useful M-1 Carbine, but if it was captured from the enemy, it would have paperwork the allows the owner to bring it home! I hate to rain on your parade, but I think you have been coned out of your money. (Or if the price was right, you have a nice shooter.)

Ivan

Thats a nice M1 my dad had one when he could buy them for 20.00. Now my brother has it .A friend brought back a ci com type 68 came with a 20 round mag I think and it looked like a SKS but was not had a little fiber glass upper hand guard with a rate reducer John always said hears fast give it a turn and say hears to dam fast . I love to see that stuff your M1 is nice .

It's a mish mash M1 carbine but if you got it right and
like to shoot these, have fun with it.
This is what my grandmaw would say, "It's a bad marriage".
I'm also sorry but don't think it's a bring back for the reasons
mentioned previously by Ivan and others.
Looking at the top of receiver very poor fit (even for these).
I would say the rifle has been re-stocked.

Take it out and run a bunch of ammo thru it and have a blast !!


Chuck

__________________
They hold no Quarter

I am not certain if any of the WWII carbines originally had bayonet studs, but I don't think so. The bayonet stud, the click-adjustable rear sight, and a few other changes were performed as Arsenal retrofits on all (or at least the great majority) of WWII carbines remaining in US military inventory during the post-WWII period. The rear sight on that one appears to have at least started out as the WWII two-position type.

That carbine may very well have been one the French used in Indochina before they were kicked out by H o Chi Minh. The .30 Carbine was a great favorite of the Legion Etrangier. I wouldn't modify it in any way.

A lot of what Ivan says is true, but the hardware would have been most likely borrowed from us. During This period it would
have been very easy to get American nuts & bolts in country, in
fact easier than Commie stuff. Also a lot of guns didn't have the
Provost papers, they found their way home in mail and other ways. Wasn't hard until dope addicts caused a problem sending
narcotics in the mail. They screwed up everything for sending
Mics, good stuff home. While VC may have reloaded with cast
bullets early in the war, they were past that when I got there.
The puzzle to me is the writing, Ivan is right- why would it be
in English? I wrote " If found return to Adolf Hitler" on a PP
magazine with a lead pencil, guy I selling it to said I would have
got away with it, had I been smart enough to write in in German.

Gentlemen - I thank you for the commentaries - Please keep those thoughts coming -

As for the Carbine - I am happy either way - I've got an early Carbine that have lived a questionable life -

Here are quite a few more pictures of components for your review -

I've questioned the writing - It lacks the accents on it to make it "Vietnamese" -


Hello Dan - I hope you're well - Best regards.

Hi:
M1 Carbines started out (WWII) with no bayonet lug and a "L" shape flip rear sight blade (one leg for 100 yds and the other leg for 300 yds). It appears that one of the legs was grounded down to made a "V" type quick sighting sight. The regular rear sight legs were peep sights. The screw on the upper sling swivel is a replacement which is normal as these screws were easy to lose. IMHO a previous owner modified a early mfg carbine into a one of a kind Viet Nam "Bring Back". The stock and handguard were refinished.

That was my point. None of the M1 Carbines manufactured started life with a bayonet lug. In response to complaints of troops on the ground, relatively late in the war (WWII) the US Arsenal added bayonet lugs and began to retrofit the existing, in service weapons with a lug. That retrofit continued until long after the war was over.

By the time of the Vietnam War all US owned M1 Carbines would have had a bayonet lug. From what I can tell from the pictures, the barrel on this gun does not show any of the typical tell-tale wear that I would expect to see if it had been fitted with one and later removed.

That brings to mind two possibilities. One, this was a weapon lost on the battlefield during WWII and somehow found its way to Vietnam. Or, two, this was a weapon we provided one of our allies that never went through the Arsenal retrofit and was subsequently lost.

Either way, I don't believe this was a Vietnam era, U.S. issued weapon. All of the U.S. and South Vietnamese M1 Carbines would have had a bayonet lug.

It appears to be a fairly early M1 Carbine in mostly original configuration.

- It has what probably was the original 2 position aperture sight, but the L shaped leaf has bene replaced with a field expedient with an aperture and a v notch.
- It has the early 2 rivet hand guard (which appears to have been re-riveted - there was a reason they went to 4 rivets instead of 2 in there later M1 carbines).
- It has the early Type 1 barrel band
- It has the early button safety (as opposed to the later lever style used to prevent troops dropping the magazine by mistake when they meant to move the safety button.)
- It has the original flat top M1 bolt (most US carbines that remained in use after WWII got the stronger round topped M2 bolt).

The stock however is an M2 stock given the pot belly profile found on the M2 carbines and the presence of a selector cut that was not found on the semi-auto only M1 stock. (I.e. it's not poorly fitted on the left front of the receiver, it's just an M2 stock with the selector cut.)

----

I disagree with one of the posters above that all M1 carbines in US hands were updated to the late style barrel band with a bayonet lug. Back when you could still get these from DCM in very good to excellent condition (1970)s it was not uncommon to get an early M1 that still had the early style Type 1 and 2 barrel bands, and had no indications of ever having a Type 3 band with bayonet lug. These were also M1 carbines that had always been in US hands.

The difference in whether the M1 Carbine had upgraded depended on whether it been issued for service, brought out of storage and upgraded to the latest configuration prior to being delivered under a foreign military assistance program, or just stored since WWII.

M1 Garands had a similar trajectory when it came to updates and arsenal rebuilds. Those that were issued after WWII were usually arsenal rebuilt at some point, those that were sent out as military assistance in the 1960s usually got arsenal rebuilt with a new production barrel, and those that had never gotten tapped for either of those tracks stayed in their original condition.

----

In this case however I think it is likely that the carbine was in fact either a carbine issued to one of our allies during WWII, or very shortly after (the early Type 1 sights were mostly replaced by about 1948), or was a combat loss in Asia during WWII, and either way eventually found it's way to Vietnam, where it probably got a replacement stock at some point, given the configuration and the overall lack of updating that would have probably preceded delivery to South Vietnam as military assistance.

I would not discount the French Foreign Legion possibility. That is the same route that Walther P.38s found their way into VC and NVA hands.

I also agree that capture paperwork would be nice, but the reality is that paperwork wasn't always a requirement.

You have a rare one their to bad it cant talk . Those guns had a hard life out on the ** Chi Min trial .

The Viet Cong used tons of M-1 Carbines and got them from a variety of sources. This May 1971 image shows a female VC with her M-1. Looks like she is happy in her work lugging a crate of what may be US 81MM mortar rounds.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

We outfitted the S. Vietnamese army with thousands of M! carbines early on as we had tons of surplus rifles and basically, they were to small to equip with the the M14 we used and the M1 fit them perfectly.

I am curious about that cartridge, as I don't recognize it. What are its dimensions? (OAL, case & bullet diameter, case length, rim diameter) It appears to have no headstamp whatsoever, and that in itself is a little strange. Usually only very early cartridges are seen w/o headstamps.

I spend too much time dealing with carbines so I can say without a doubt Winchester and Inland both came with bayonet lugs straight from the factory. Inland used them starting at the end of 44 and Winchester a few months later. As far as this carbines goes, yes it is a mix of original and other USGI parts. The trigger housing alone a fairly rare dogleg hammer is worth about 400 bucks plus or minus just a bit. BTW, the rear sight is original, but clearly has been modified in way I've never seen before. It's an interesting carbine no matter what the history of it actually is.

I also just noticed the Springfield Armory birch looking stock. The barrel band is original, but swivel screw as mentioned is for sure not. The swivel looks odd. I am going to hold comment on that right now.

Gentlemen - I don't have any calipers to measure the round...so sorry. Any other way for me to measure?

Here are some better pics of the magazine and sling - I've never heard of this mag.

The M1 carbine barrel band bayonet lug was approved for standardization on May 10, 1944. But it seems unclear how many of these found their way onto those carbines actually shipped out and used during WWII proper. Probably not very many, as it's unlikely to have been produced in any quantity until at earliest late 1944. And by that time, the military weapons supply pipelines were already full to overflowing with about every type of small arms. Sort of like the M2 Carbine. They were approved for manufacture and use late in 1944, but only a very few of them saw action during WWII. Not so in Korea, lots of M2s were used there.

"Gentlemen - I don't have any calipers to measure the round...so sorry. Any other way for me to measure? "

If you have a ruler with a millimeter scale, you might be able to estimate the dimensions by using it, maybe to within about 0.5 mm.

That barrel , and the sling swivel, look exactly like the ones on my Underwood with high wood and flip sight. The screw, of course, is a replacement. The original screw was threaded into the bottom of the barrel band and the head of the screw was curved, with a slit, so the rim of a cartridge could be used to tighten or remove it. I think it's original, except for the screw.

After WW II France assembled over 60,000 P38s from parts left at Oberndorf, which was in the French sector. They're stamped svw 45 and 46. Most of these went to Indochina, and some fell into VC hands.

In addition to the rear sight discussed I see that the OP's carbine also has the early push-button safety, indicating very early production.

During WW2 the US provided considerable assistance to ** Chi Minh's forces, which were resisting Japanese invasion and occupation. Shipments of weapons from the US included rifles, machineguns, mortars, and other types. I'm certain that many of those weapons continued to serve with Viet Minh and later Viet Cong forces after WW2 ended (1945), with continuing use until the fall of the South Vietnamese government (1975) not at all unrealistic.

During my service in Vietnam I saw quite a few US weapons captured from communist forces, including M1 & M2 carbines, M1 Garands, Thompson SMG's, 1903 Springfields, 1911 pistols, S&W revolvers, and others. A guy I knew recovered a 1903 Springfield, then spent months of his free time "sporterizing" the rifle to use for deer hunting when he got home. Who would have thought back then that such a captured piece would become highly collectible? Springfield rifles could be purchased for $30 or $40 in those days, and very few people were interested in unaltered old Army rifles.

When practicable caches of weapons were recovered for transfer to RVN Popular Forces and Regional Forces. When this could not be done we simply destroyed weapons using explosives and/or fire. Weapons caches frequently contained arms of US, Chinese, Soviet-bloc, German, French, and other origins.

Although I can't add anything to the technical or historical details of this firearm, I believe the Vietnamese, like the Turks, adopted the Western alphabet prior to the period in discussion. Most historical photos show this.
Great discussion, love reading posts like this. Bill S

Sorry, brainfart resulted in sending the post before finishing. My point was that it was therefore entirely logical that a Vietnamese name would be in Western alphabetic characters. Bill S

DWalt, You need to do more homework. Bayonet bands were fitted onto almost all Winchester and Inland Carbines above 6 million. The adjustable rear sight started earlier and will be found on Winchester from around 5.4, Inlands in the 6 mils, the top 2/3rds of all IBM's, the last year of Rockola's, high numbered Quality hardwares for sure and probably others. High numbered underwoods will be found with adjustables and bayonet bands that were assembled by Winchester, after Underwood was removed from the Carbine program toward the end of the war, and all their parts and receivers were shipped to Winchester for completion.

The rebuild/retrofit program added bayonet bands to those that didn't have them, and included the round bolt for the ones that didn't get it during manufacture, the flip safety, modifying the stocks to low wood on all that were not made that way, and of course adjustable sights. Many were shipped abroad to the French and other allies without the retrofits. During the retrofit alot of carbines were converted to M2. Prior to the retrofit a lot of carbines were sold through the NRA to members.

The Vietnamese language is written in the European alphabet, with accent marks added to show inflection or sounds that we don't use. This happened when a Portugese priest landed in then Indochina in the 17th century (I think) and used our alphabet as it existed in Portugese, to record the Vietnamese language. Before that, anything written in Indochina was written in Chinese ideographs. I think that Vietnamese is unique among Eastern languages in using the European alphabet.

Thank you Cyrano for saying much more eloquently than I could -

Yes our language uses the western/european alphabet - Actually the pronuciation of the alphabet is much like any Latin base alphabet (Which was why I was able to learn English and later Spanish quite easily)

Our language actually contains some word that are similar to Portuguese -

The name on the stock is simply missing the accent - Other than the last name is first then the middle name then the first name last - I hope that made sense! LOL

I ordered a measuring caliper so will have some measurement of the round soon -

I hope we can make heads and tails out of this -

The dimensions are very close to the .32 Ballard Extra Long, which is a very early US centerfire cartridge from ca. 1880. COTW says it went out of production ca. 1920. Hard to believe it somehow wound up in Vietnam. But I show no other CF cartridges in any of my references, either inch or metric, which are as close to those dimensions.

Hi DWalt - Thank you for the added info -

Anyone with other info on the cartridge or the mag?

I was in the 18th MP Brigade headquarters in 1970 at Long Binh. We had a small firearms museum of captured weapons. There was an M-1 carbine on the wall with a note that it had been air dropped to ** Chi Minh during WWII as he battled the Japanese.

Hi Max -

Do you have any pictures of the said museum?

Here's a link to an old thread of mine - Have to do with the 716th - Perhaps you might know Mike Vasey -

http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearm...-trophies.html

I don't know if I have any pictures of those weapons or not. I have not looked at my pictures for a very long time. I went through MP school with some guys who ended up in the 716th, but I don't recognize the name. The 18th MP BDE does have a Facebook page and a lot of vets post there.