Walther P38, P4 Question

loeman

loeman

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Yesterday, while browsing Armslist, I came upon an interesting ad. The sale was for a circa 1984 P4 which I think is one of the last P38s made. The ad claimed that only 451 of these guns were imported to the US by Interarms and the one for sale is somewhat unique among those because the serial number is only on the right side of the slide, and not later engraved elsewhere by Interarms to comply with Federal law.

Well this inspired me to look at my P4. I got it in a multi gun trade about 20 years ago. Not because I particularly liked it but because it was part of the package deal. But it is interesting that I've never been inclined to sell. Anyway, mine is ANIB with everything including wood grips, original grips, target, tools and all docs. When I looked at it I discovered that my serial (607086) is only on the right side of the slide like the one for sale.

And finally my question. Does my gun have any extra Karma due to the serial number being in only one place. Or do I just have something that does not comply with current law? Thanks for your replies and sorry I don't have any pics right now of mine.
 
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I had a late mfg post war P38 with only the ser# on the slide. Complete with box and papers (German language only).
It came with some paperwork that it was brought into the US through Diplomatic channels IIRC, plus a BATF letter that said the pistol was legal, legit, ect.
No importer marks on it of course. Just standard Walther commercial markings. Beautiful pistol

I logged it in as such and later sold it to another FFL the same way.
The pistol did bring a premium but it was in what appeared to be unfired condition and with the accessorys.
A few buyers were hesitant though due to the non-serial numbered frame. I respected their views.

I was told the frame was not the 'firearm' componet in Germany the same way that it is in the USA.
I went through that with shotguns going to Italy, specificly the bbls were the 'firearm' there and needed all the paper work for import into Italy.
I ended up doing all the engraving work on the bbls here to save that export/import work, the frames went to Italy with no problem.

The 'import marking' law went into effect in '85 or 86.

Interarms needing to apply a matching ser# to the frame before sale would have been a standard thing demanded by Customs and BATF. Same as they did on the Mosin Nagant rifles & carbines which were ser#'d on their bbls.
But many thousands of those were imported before that '85 law and never received such treatment. They were sold and continue to me resold with just the orig ser# used,,and that is stamped up on the bbl only.

Just my one time experiance with that and some comments..
 
A local pawn shop here has a later model M1 Walther here.
I'm thinking of buying it, but am skeptical of it's value.
 
Still have a used P4 I bought in 1988; the dealer's SHOTGUN NEWS ad said they were former German police pistols. The serial number on my gun is in the 605000 range.

Good shooting pistol and more accurate than the regular P38/ P1 that I used to have. I use my P4 for cast bullets.
 
Yes, it is my understanding that just about all the P4s were made for West German police and less than 500 were imported to the US. Mine has no markings indicating police issue. It really is a cool gun and it is my understanding it may be the very best of all the P38s due to engineering changes.
 
Quote from 2152hq

"The 'import marking' law went into effect in '85 or 86.

Interarms needing to apply a matching ser# to the frame before sale would have been a standard thing demanded by Customs and BATF. Same as they did on the Mosin Nagant rifles & carbines which were ser#'d on their bbls.
But many thousands of those were imported before that '85 law and never received such treatment. They were sold and continue to me resold with just the orig ser# used,,and that is stamped up on the bbl only."

Based on '85 or '86 being the inception date for the "import date", it would be my guess that all of the commercial P4s imported by Interarms were not serialed on the frame. They probably just made it to our shores before the new law. Or perhaps they had some unsold inventory when the law went into effect that they needed to serial.

I also agree that having no serial number on the frame would not make gun more valuable. Regardless, it is a fine looking gun with a whole lot of history.
 
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This may be clear to some of you, but it’s important to not confuse two things:

The US export version of the P4 from 1981 was indeed limited to 452 pistols. According to Marschall, they comprised one serial block from 606,968 to 607,419.

But those were not the only P4s imported to the US. Total production of the P4 from 1975 to 1981 (both with Ulm and Manurhin stampings) was in the 7000s. Most went indeed to police and federal agencies in Germany, and after being surplused out beginning in 1979, a large chunk of those ended up on the US collector market after FOPA lifted the ban on surplus imports in 1986 (which had been in place since the GCA of 1968). Those would be the ones with required importer stamps.
 
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Thanks Absalom,
Your post clears up my question perfectly. The seller of the P4 on Armslist is making much ado about nothing. My gun and the other 451 will not have the secondary serial added by Interarms.
I'm grateful to you and all the other responders. Thanks.
loeman
 
Pistol frames are a restricted part in Germany, rifle and sub machine gun receivers aren't.
 
As a side note, the reason for the P4‘s low production numbers and short service span is its arrival at a time of change in West German service pistols.

At the same time that Walther offered the P4 as an upgraded version of the P38/P1 line in the mid-1970s, it had also developed the P5 as a successor model and was competing with it in the national police pistol trials.

So only a few agencies that felt they couldn‘t wait for the conclusion of the trials ended up purchasing quantities of the P4, only to start withdrawing them from service again as soon as one of the three newly approved pistols (Walther P5, SigSauer P6, HK P7) became available. I remember reading somewhere that supposedly the Bundesgrenzschutz (BGS, border police), which adopted the P6 in 1979, was pulling P4s from duty even as they were still taking delivery of some.
 
I posted my P4 here a couple months ago, so a Walther P4 search should bring it up. A SN in the 603000, Feb. '76. SN stamped on left frame with last three numbers on the slide above. BMI, or Interior Ministry, Customs, Border Patrol stamped and hashed out on the right above the trigger guard.
I got some good info on the Walther forum.
I have not had a 9mm for forty years, but I like this pistol. Handles and shoots well.
 
Mine shows a date of 10/76 with a 605000 number, so that sounds about right.
 
My slide-only serial numbered commercial P38 came from a GI who said he bought it in a PX in Germany in the early 1980's. No import markings, of course.
#430xxx Aluminum frame with the hex bolt. If it had a date mark, I didn't note it in my record.
 
Well, this looks like a perfect opprutunity to show a pic of my P5:

les-b-albums-some-of-my-walthers-picture17106-walther-p5.jpg


les-b-albums-some-of-my-walthers-picture17107-walther-p5-rh.jpg


I just happen to have this one here at the cabin with me right now, and it is a splendid little 9mm. Aluminum frame, with a very discreet import mark on the under side of the frame just in front of the trigger guard. If I didn't know it was there, I wouldn't notice it. Came with an extra magazine and the black plastic Walther box, as well as a German language manual and a German Police holster.

Best Regards, Les
 
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les.b said:
...., as well as a German language manual and a German Police holster.
...
Click to expand...

The crossed-out BMI on the left front of the slide makes this a pistol which was procured by the Federal Interior Ministry for the BePo (Bereitschaftspolizei, “readiness police” or riot police) of either the states of Rheinland-Pfalz or Baden-Württemberg.

Those were the only states to adopt the P5, and while regular police service pistols were bought and stamped by the individual states directly, the Byzantine procurement rules of German bureaucracy made BePo acquisitions a federal responsibility. The same applies to many of the BMI-stamped P38s/P1s/P4s, although some of those, in contrast to the P5, were actually issued to federal officers like the border police.
 
Thanks, Absalom, I'll print that information out and tuck it into the manual...I'm always interested in the history of firearms that I aquire. I appreciate your knowledge and willingness to help.

This is a beautifully crafted and wonderful little pistol, and IIRC was being sold for a very Modest sum at the time.

Best Regards, Les
 
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