Looking for some help from anyone into this type of item. A co-worker knows someone looking to sell. I know nothing about these but think it is unique. Reminds me of one of the bad guys in "Joe Kidd".

Looks to be in nice shape for it's age. Appears to be numbers matching, S/N 62xxx, has the shoulder stock / holster as well as some type of cleaning rod / tool, red 9 on the grip. Can't see if the mounting lug for the stock is numbers matching. Leather is dated 1917 and appears to be German marked. Left side of the stock seems to be missing the hinge assembly, but appears to be in nice condition.

Does anyone have an approximate value of something like this? How about ATF regulations since with the stock it would be considered a SBR? I think these are exempt, but not sure.

Many thanks for any input. Best regards, Bob.

__________________
SWCA #2785
OGCA #35078

I can’t say anything about the value, but you do need to research the legal issue of the stock.

I come across this occasionally on forums devoted to German guns. It’s a bit tricky. At some point BATFE removed original stocks of a certain vintage from the list, but repro stocks would be illegal, or something like that. There are copies of ATF letters to that effect floating around.

This question is better asked on a specialty forum. Maybe the folks on the Luger forum can point you in the right direction.

Jan C Still Luger Pistols Central Powers Axis Pistols Discussion Boards From Gunboards.com

See above, at one time what you are describing was defined as a short barreled rifle. Thus requiring the blessing of the ATF.
Please keep us posted, and best of luck.

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Always Stay Strong!

David Rachwal, my go to guy, (so was his Dad,) has two Red 9's listed. One, complete, matching and original for $5895, the second, matching, with repro stock, harness and cleaning rod, for $3650. Red 9's are usually very sought after. His prices are on the high side, but you get high end examples.

I have a pre-war commercial with stock, and it is totally OK and legal to posses, just like a stocked Englis, Luger, Browning, etc.

Jim

I am certain that if the stock is original, you are legally OK as it has been exempted from being a NFA weapon. Apparently all of the 9mm Mausers originally came with the wooden stock holster. There were 9mm Mausers made from early 1916 onward, but only those made after late 1917 had the red "9" grips at manufacture. Earlier 9mm Mausers in service had the "9" applied and painted by unit armorers. Those grips appear more crudely done. A total of about 130,000 9mm Mausers were made during WWI.

Keep in mind that Mauser had their own 9 mm cartridge and I suspect that pistols chambered for that longer round are more expensive.

The most common C-96's are in the original 7.63 mm.

Sir Winston Churchill used one in the cavalry charge at Omdurman in 1898. He wrote to his mother that the pistol performed well. He killed, I believe, three men for certain, two probably, and wounded another two. Not bad for a ten-round magazine! But the Dervishes were very close, trying to hamstring his horse with their swords.

You can read this account in his autobio, "My Early Life", published in 1930. There have been occasional reprints.

I think he's easily the most famous user of the Mauser pistol.

Don't fire Russian or Czech 7.62 mm Tokarev ammo in Mauser pistols. It's the right dimensions, but is loaded too hot for those old guns. Also, install new springs.

I've seen a 7.63 mm fired at dusk, and the fireball muzzle flash was impressive! If the bullet didn't kill your opponent, that flash might cook him! I'm joking, of course, but that flash is pretty bright.

Not surprised at the suggested value posted above. Seems any German militaria [knives and guns] have been increasing in value hand over fist lately. Those Broomhandle Mausers are sure not exception.

C-96 Mausers are in 2 different 9mm cartridges as well as the original 7.63x25 (30 Mauser) The first 9mm was the 9x23 Mauser (often called 9mm Export. The second 9mm was 9x19 (called 9mm Lugar or 9mm Parabellum) The are the guns that correctly have the Red 9 grip panels!

The ATF removed the "ban" on the shoulder stocks (both original and reproductions) It was removed in the 1990's when the 25,000 or so C-96's and some clones were allowed to be imported from China!

I have one of these China Imports. It has been re-blued (so-so job)inside and out! The bore has no pits but very little rifling is left. With Chinese 7.63x25 ammo it shot 4" at 200 yards off a rest (back in the 90's! now I have trouble seeing the sights!)

The value: is all over the place! and in reality it is only worth what somebody will pay for it! That being said, these are very iconic hand guns! and bring in the 4 figurers normally. I paid $395 +tax in the 90's and believe this one to be on the low end of the spectrum at about $1200. I don't need or want to sell, I'll let the kids argue over it when I kick off!

Do be careful about which ammo you use! 100 years ago these were very robust guns, but have received marginal care in the mean time! They never could handle the sub-machine gun ammo, so to be safe, stick to 30 Mauser ammo and avoid the com-bloc ammo altogether!

Ivan

The BATF C&R list Section III (Firearms removed from NFA and now classed as C&R under GCA) has only 'original' stocks listed with C96, Belgian H/P, Canadian Inglis HP, Luger pistols (several variations).

I too thought that the 'repro' stocks were acceptable if they followed original design and mfg specs. Maybe they were and the ATF changed their minds,,wouldn't be the first time.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...pdf-0/download

Scroll down to page 34 for the start of the listings of such and you'll find all of the above pistols w/ attached stocks removed from NFA constraints,,,but the stocks described as being 'original', original German mfg,,or Canadian mfg, Belgian mfg, ect. Nothing about repro mfg stocks being acceptable.

One picture is worth a thousand words!

Many thanks for the replies. I figured there would be a few members who had some knowledge about these. I am planning to inspect it in person soon. Will try to get up a photo or two as well. Any particular things I should be looking for?

Best regards, Bob.

__________________
SWCA #2785
OGCA #35078

One thing at least. If you intend to shoot the pistol. If the area I circled in red is not like in my picture, and the surfaces look slightly bowed to the rear. Don't get that pistol even if it's free.

Attached Images

C96 stress area.jpg (91.8 KB, 66 views)

There a boat load of fake Red 9’s out there. Do some research on them so that you can tell the difference, look at pictures. Were the 9mm Imperial German Army contract a separate serial number run? I would have to look that up. If not I would think that a serial number of 62xxx maybe to early to be a Red 9. Does the whole rig look like it is 100 years old? My 1905 C96 serial number is in the 50,000 range. Real Red 9 C96’s with the complete rig are popular and pricey, $2,500 if you catch somebody sleeping to $5,000+. The shoulder stock is legal to attach and use, both original and repro stocks on original pistols. The ATF approved of them. Do not put a original or repro shoulder stock on a newly manufactured C96, yes there are some that came in from China during the 90’s. That will get you slapped by the Feds.

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Life NRA, Life TSRA, C&R FFL

The ATF has gone back and forth a number of times on the legality of Repro Stocks and certain handguns,,wether they are NFA weapons or not.

The current C&R listing as I linked to above simply states that the stock referenced with each of the commonly talked about pistols must be 'original mfg'.

The letters from the BATF,, copys can still be found circulating around the web on some gun forums,, with the opinions about the legality of the shoulder stocked handgun issue are from 1981, 1999(?), & 2002.
Each letter was very specific as to a certain firearm(s) the question was asked about, so you can't assume the ruling at the time extended to all.

In the '81 opinion, the question was wether 'certain Luger and Browning HP pistols' then already removed from NFA w/ Original shoulder stocks would also be so classified if equipted w/a repro stock.
The opinion was that yes they would be removed from NFA if the stock was a repro as well as an original..
The opinion stated something to the effect that currently made reproduction shoulder stocks which were duplicates or very close in dimensions and configuration of the originals would be of collector interest and not used in criminal activity.

1999(?) letter/opinion was about the same issue, but the firearm in question was a Canadian mfg Inglis H/P-Chinese Contract.
The BATF had already removed it from the NFA ,,IF the stock was an original Canadian mfg one. The question was about the same classification if a repro stock was attached.
Opinion....NO...The Canadian Inglis mfg H/P pistol (Chinese Contract) w/ shoulder stock only got the exemption from NFA IF the shoulder stock was an original Canadian Mfg stock from that era.
(No mention of 'non' Chinese contract Inglis HP pistols and their standing w/repro stocks)

2002 Letter/opinion Confirms that an original Mauser C96 pistol is exempt from NFA if fitted with EITHER an original OR a repro shoulder stock. The Repro stock must be a "duplicate or closely approximates the original design" .
(The new mfg Mauser C96 repro pistols from China were also noted as not being included in this ruling).

So those opinion letters from the Tech Branch were written. They seem to conflict at least somewhat and never included an overall ruling on repro vs orig shoulder stocks and which pistols.

Now the latest listing in the link in my other post simply says 'original stock',,or original mfg stock, ect.
There is no mention in any of the listings of Repro/Reproduction stocks at all.

I haven't been able to find any of the Tech Branch opinion letters above on the BATF website to confirm exact language.
They seem to be gone or I'm just a computer luddite,,which is entirely possible!
Copys on other websites can be altered,,I'd like to see the originals off the BATF website to be sure what was said,,I guess not.

But going by the latest info posted,,the C&R listing and it's details, I'd think the Originals are legal now and not the repros.
Maybe time for another 'opinion' in letter form from the BATF on the subject.
The issue of the repro stocks is glaringly missing from the entry or maybe just got left out.

I think it may have something to do with the issue of 'what is a C&R' that came up a while back.
The ATF finally ruling, if not somewhat in the gray area again, that the firearm among other things, had to be in it's original configuration, unaltered, blah blah.

I'm thinking (bad thing to do) that their own ruling made them drop the Repro Stock acceptability language from the shoulder stocked handguns in order to remove them from NFA and put them into Type1 Firearm C&R classification.
They weren't 'original' enough anymore in their repro shoulder stocked form to be a C&R.
W/O the stock they are just a C&R handgun.

Just my AM ramblings.

Many sincere thanks to all who replied. I learn something new each time I log into this forum, at least twice a day. I received a few photos forwarded from my co-worker. They are probably from a cell phone, but better than nothing. A few of the holster and stock assembly.

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__________________
SWCA #2785
OGCA #35078

I think that worked. Here are a few of the item. Does it look like the real deal, worth the asking price? Thanks for any and all replies, Bob.

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	IMG_0549.jpg (88.1 KB, 43 views)

__________________
SWCA #2785
OGCA #35078

Cannot judge the finish by the (bad)quality of the photos.
I would like to see the markings on the tangent rear sight. A legit red nine is marked from 50 to 500 whereas a 7.63 is marked from 50 to 1000.

The caliber should also be marked as 9x19

The serial number is in the slot for a red 9, they have their one serial numbering that goes from 1 to last recorded 135127(it should go up to 150000 but apparently the contract wasn't fulfilled on account of the end of the war).

By the way. All matching numbers, means a full disassembly of the pistol. Almost all parts are marked with the last 3 numbers.

You should check this site. Mauser C-96

The good news is that it isn't stressed in the wrong area as I pointed above.

You didn't mention the asked price, did you?

Sorry, thought I had it in my original post. Seller is asking $2000 US. Bob

__________________
SWCA #2785
OGCA #35078

The shoulder stock and rig look a little suspect from those pictures.

__________________
Life NRA, Life TSRA, C&R FFL

Thanks for the reply. Please elaborate, since I will be the first to admit I know nothing about these. Thanks, Bob

__________________
SWCA #2785
OGCA #35078

The leather and the wood does not look 101 years old, might be the pictures. Repro sets have been made for the last 40 years or so.

$2,000 for a just a Red 9 in that condition is a good price, from those pictures the gun looks legit, granted they are not the best pictures, I would probably buy it. I would look at the stock and rig carefully, is there any markings at all on the stock? Even if the stock was a repro it would probably not be a deal breaker for me for a Red 9 in that condition for $2k

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Life NRA, Life TSRA, C&R FFL

That price is not bad. It can even be very good if everything is legit and the finish is original.

Added a few things in my previous post.

Mainly this source of info. Mauser C-96

I'd question the originality of the grips. They look too 'new' too me but that could just be the pics also.
The originals are supposed to be 24 lined I think,,but I don't know enough about the collectors minutia to say if that is a hard and fast rule. These are 28 line if I'm counting them right.
Small point I know,,but 2K would be no small amt, at least to me.

The original R9's are of much poorer final fit and finish than usually seen from Mauser due to their expedited need at the time. I admit I have little experience handling a large number of those original finish R9 pistols.
But I just can't warm up to the overall look of the gun and the stock.
The pistol says 'refinished/rust blued' to me and the stock/holster says repro.

Just me looking at a handful of pics on the net.,,and I've seen way too much fakery & fake stuff so I'm looking at everything with perhaps a slanted perspective.

About the shoulder stock; I know most of those were numbered to the gun as well, or at least they were on Pre-WWI made C-96s. Sometimes the number was burned into the wood and sometimes it was on the steel hinge that opens the top, which is behind the leather. To me, the stocks and the shoulder stock do not look aged enough to be 100 years old, nor does the leather. Usually the shoulder stocks I have seen, which have not been many, are of a much darker walnut than the one pictured.

I do own a Bolo C-96 (mixed serial numbers) and back in the 1990s I purchased a repo shoulder stock and different style leather rig for it and a cleaning rod too. A repo set wouldn't deter me from purchasing a C-96.

The pistol looks right, but can see the serial numbers. Also, if you look on the bottom of the barrel, at least on the 30 Mauser models, the caliber should be listed saying 7.63. If it says that on the bottom of the one pictured, than it was reamed out to a 9mm. Mine originally came like that and the ream job was not right and spent cases were left with a bulge. I bought a shot out replacement barrel in 7.63 and had it lined, since most of my serial numbers are different anyway! I'm not sure if the bottom barrel of a 9mm has any caliber markings, as I haven't seen one of those up close.

I hope this helps.

There is no caliber marked on the bottom of the barrel of my 1910 C96.

Nope, no caliber marking on my 1905 C96 that I own now or the other C96's, a M30 and a Bolo, that I have owned in the past.

__________________
Life NRA, Life TSRA, C&R FFL

I am inclined to believe it's a true red 9. Because of the following:

1 A low serial number consistent with a separate numbering for the Prussian contract.

2 The pistol has the "new type safety" only found in the Wartime Commercials, Prussian contract and post war bolos. And the serial number is to low for a Wartime commercial or a post war.

3 The weight relief cuts are very crude, consistent with the Prussian contract.

I also believe those grip panels are replacements (I was forced to replace the grip panels of mine because they were in a real bad shape).

I Would feel more confident if I knew the tangent rear sight had the correct graduation up to 500 meters.

Cannot say if it's refinished or not, but appears not.

They were rust blued from the start.

Only an "eyes on" observation could clear(and maybe not ) the doubts.


Edit.If it's a fake, it's very well done.

The previous posters have covered what to look for on a "Red 9" broomhandle Mauser very well. Here are some other things to look for:

A small Prussian Eagle acceptance mark on the front of the magazine housing on many but not all Red 9s.

A milled out oval area in the magazine follower to make the shorter 9mm rounds feed more reliably on many but not all Red 9s.

Military shoulder stocks generally do not have the metal loop or staple protruding from the side of the hinge - but there are exceptions. Apparently the leather retention strap was thought to be sufficient to retain the sock in the harness without running the retention strap through a loop on the stock hinge as seen on many commercial stocks.

An experienced Broomhandle collector told me that there are exceptions to every rule when dealing with Broomhandles - especially wartime production guns.