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FN FAL

Seven High

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Messages
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I have read that the FN FAL was originally offered to various nations in the 280 caliber. Has anyone ever seen or actually got to shoot one in that caliber? If so, what was your impression.
 
Never seen or shot one, but I’ve seen a number of boxes of ammo.

The Brit’s wanted a 7mm, but the the US pushed for a .30 Caliber. We used our influence to get NATO to adopt the 7.52x51 cartridge and setttled on the US made M14.

The FN became known as the Right Arm of the Free World. They’re great rifles in the semi-automatic configuration and I have two; a Paratrooper imported by Howco and a Match imported by Steyr, Dample Puch. It may take a couple of days, but I’ll post photos.
 
I believe there is .280 cal/7x43mm FAL in the Springfield Armory Museum in Mass.

I recall seeing about 15 years ago in their behind the scenes, pre-scheduled tour. The FALs were in SE corner of the second floor, but curators handled them with white gloves only. Other FALs included uS-built H&Rs with a funky triggergard and various inch/metric patterns.

So my experience is only the unsatisfying look at one said .280 gun. My guess is the comparable Rock Island Arsenal Museum likely has one too, but you will only see that under glass as well. My main interest is if the FAL could have been more lively/light in .280.

Neat idea on the cartridge. Had a profile similar to modern day 6.5 Grendel, which might have been less than ideal for crew served automatic weapons. The .280 also was similar in performance to the original M-1 Garand’s .276 chambering in the pre-WWII development, which is discussed at the Springfield museum.
 
Never seen or shot one, but I’ve seen a number of boxes of ammo.

The Brit’s wanted a 7mm, but the the US pushed for a .30 Caliber. We used our influence to get NATO to adopt the 7.52x51 cartridge and setttled on the US made M14.

That's a kind assessment. Here's mine.

Colonel Studler of the Ordnance Department went into full "not invented here" mode towards any of the European suggestions. As a result NATO got saddled with a full power cartridge when they needed an intermediate one. Later on a lot of taxpayers' money was wasted in the Western world building different weapons when the mistake was realized and 5.56 came along.

Next up, 6.8 SPC, or "How the Brits and the Belgians got it right in the first place in 1950".
 
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That's a kind assessment. Here's mine.

Colonel Studler of the Ordnance Department went into full "not invented here" mode towards any of the European suggestions. As a result NATO got saddled with a full power cartridge when they needed an intermediate one. Later on a lot of taxpayers' money was wasted in the Western world building different weapons when the mistake was realized and 5.56 came along.

Next up, 6.8 SPC, or "How the Brits and the Belgians got it right in the first place in 1950".

As soon as the Canadians and Europeans had standardized on 7.62 rifles following the US lead, by the mid-1960s we ticked off everybody, especially the British, by dumping the 7.62 for the 5.56. Understandably, nobody was eager to follow yet again.

As a result, for the rest of the Cold War the US used a different rifle caliber than pretty much everyone else in NATO.

Not until it was almost over, by the mid-1980s, did our NATO partners begin switching to 5.56 rifles. I think the British were first with the L85, the Germans last with the G36 in the late 1990s.
 
The pentagon is looking to replace the M4 rifle and the 5.56 caliber cartridge. Possibly they should consider the fn fal in 280 caliber again.
 
That's a kind assessment. Here's mine.

Colonel Studler of the Ordnance Department went into full "not invented here" mode towards any of the European suggestions. As a result NATO got saddled with a full power cartridge when they needed an intermediate one. Later on a lot of taxpayers' money was wasted in the Western world building different weapons when the mistake was realized and 5.56 came along.

Next up, 6.8 SPC, or "How the Brits and the Belgians got it right in the first place in 1950".

Pretty much this. ^

Studler was a fan of the .30 Light Rifle round before he went to Springfield Armory and the .30 Light Rifle cartridge became the T65 cartridge (a .30-06 shortened to .300 Savage length, but using new propellant to get nearly the same ballistics as the .30-06 M2 ball round).

The attraction of the .30 Light Rifle / T65 to the Ordnance Department was a full battle rifle round that fed more reliably in a full auto service rifle. That of course ignored the fact that a full power round was virtually uncontrollable in a service rifle, but the bias toward a full power round was incredibly strong at higher levels, since the .30-06 had served so well in WWI and WWII.

This bias that the .30-06 "performed well" was true enough in the semi-auto Garand. However it ignored the tactical advantages demonstrated by the German 7.92x33 Kurz round and the near copy Soviet M43 7.62x39 round in suitable assault rifle designs that were well suited to the reality, well documented during WWII, that virtually all infantry engagements occured at ranges of 300 yards or less.

Make no mistake, it was always all about getting a full power round. One of the excuses given by the US Ordnance Dept advocating for the T65 cartridge was that they wanted to be able to utilize most of the existing tooling to produce the new round, and the T65 met that requirement by having .30-06 case head dimensions.

So the British accommodated that request and quickly developed .280/30, which was basically the .280 British modified to have the same case head dimension as the .30-06 and T-65 cartridges.

The British designed the EM-2 around the .280 British, and it performed very well in US trials but the Ordnance Dept objected to the small caliber for use in a common caliber machine gun. The argument against the .280 Brit was essentially the smaller beaten beaten zone of the lower velocity round. The Beaten zone is an indirect fire concept defined as the distance between first catch (the distance at which a found will hit a standing soldier in the head) and "last graze" (the distance at which the round will hit a standing soldier in the foot).

Once the compromise .280/30 was rejected, the US forced the T65 cartridge, now adopted as the 7.62x51mm NATO, down NATO's throat.

The metric pattern FAL was slightly redesigned to accommodate the 7.62 NATO round. The FN FAL design was then also tweaked to use inch dimensions as the L1A1 for the British, since the EM-2 (already in limited British service chambered in .280 British) was not able to be redesigned for the larger 7.62x51 NATO.

Both the FN FAL and L1A1 shared the same problem as the M14 - near uncontrollability in full auto fire, with the result that the commonwealth L1A1s were semi-auto only, with only the heavy barreled L1A2 and Canadian C2A1, and the Canadian C1s being select fire.

The 7.62x51 NATO was adopted in 1954 with the M14, FN FAL, L1A1 and West German G1 (West German version the FAL) not entering service until 1957, with the G1 then being supplanted/replaced by the G3 beginning in 1959.

The final insult of course is that the US military began development of the .224 Springfield (a lengthened development of the .22 Remington) in 1957 - just 3 years after forcing NATO to adopt the 7.62 NATO and before rifles using it were fully in service.

The M193 round was accepted for service 6 years later in 1963, but NATO didn't sign off on an agreement to develop a new smaller caliber NATO round until 1970, and the SS109 / M555 5.46x45mm NATO round wasn't adopted until 1980.

Worse, that round and its SS109, 62 grain projectile, arguably watered down the wounding potential of the original M193 round, in preference to a long range penetration requirement that was a hold over from the 7.62x51 NATO.

Thus once again achieving a total screw up in small arms ammunition procurement of a NATO round.

-----

The .280 Brit launched a 140 grain .284" bullet at 2,550 fps. That compares quite well to the current 6.8 SPC (120 grain bullet at 2,460 fps) and the 6.5 PPC / 6.5 Grendel (130 gr bullet at 2,510 fps), all of which have been promoted over the last decade or so as much more "modern" and much better choices for a service cartridge.

It's ironic that we're now planning to adopt the 6.8 SPC a full 74 years after the .280 British was developed - and once again were doing it without NATO buy in.

If they have any sense of history they have to be thinking:

"Really? You wasted 74 years and NOW you're ok with a .280 Brit like round?"
 
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Didn't someone in South America buy Fal's in 7mm? Like a 7mm x50 or something close to that?

I don't know, but I might be having a moment.
 
I think a couple of South American countries used the previous SAFN rifle in 7X57mm, the caliber of their remaining bolt action Mausers.

Just in case anyone is interested...
 
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I don't mean to throw a monkey wrench into the works, but it might be worth it from a perspective standpoint to consider the Swiss Stgw 57 (aka SIG 510, PE 57, or US variant SIG AMT).
Developed around the same timeframe as the FN FAL.

Very high quality, served in variety of roles, and with multiple nations, as both a select fire battle rifle, and/or designated marksman rifle.
Chambered for 7.5 x 55 Swiss cartridge put it more in the 7.62 NATO class.

Jim
 
The .280 and other smaller caliber versions of the FAL never went into large scale production. It was the 7.62x51mm NATO chambered version of the design, stretched out dimensionally to accommodate the cartridge, that became a standard issue piece for many armies. Here in Africa I've had the occasion to carry and shoot no fewer than four different ones, most likely from stock in Libya. Type I and III receivers. One I think was either a German G-1 version or Austrian STG-58. Wood buttstock and black aluminum handguards. Very nice change of pace shooting those after shooting my issue Mk-18.
 
As promised...

First up is a full sized 50.00 "308 Match" that I've owned since the '80's. Back then, most of my shooting buddies had AR's, AK's or Mini-14's. We would go to the range, swap guns and burn up hundreds of rounds of cheap milsurp ammo. The FN was a "grail gun" and I was king of the hill after I traded into mine! I really wanted a Paratrooper, but was lucky to have any version of the FN LAR.

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Good things come to those who wait! I found this 50.63 Paratrooper at a local estate sale several years ago. It was priced right and came with the bipod that I've since moved to the 50.00.

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I think a couple of South American countries used the previous SAFN rifle in 7X57mm, the caliber of their remaining bolt action Mausers.

Just in case anyone is interested...

Yep, and they are much sought after due to their low recoil and accuracy. For obvious reasons the ones built for Luxembourg in 30-06 have the largest following.
 
This bias that the .30-06 "performed well" was true enough in the semi-auto Garand. However it ignored the tactical advantages demonstrated by the German 7.92x33 Kurz round and the near copy Soviet M43 7.62x39 round in suitable assault rifle designs that were well suited to the reality, well documented during WWII, that virtually all infantry engagements occured at ranges of 300 yards or less.

Make no mistake, it was always all about getting a full power round. One of the excuses given by the US Ordnance Dept advocating for the T65 cartridge was that they wanted to be able to utilize most of the existing tooling to produce the new round, and the T65 met that requirement by having .30-06 case head dimensions.

I suspect another large "not invented here" factor was that Col Studler wanted his name attached to the next US issue rifle to replace the Garand. Accepting a foreign design was not on his "to do" list. It is rumored that the quid pro quo agreed by Churchill for accepting 7.62x51 was that the US would go with the FN design. See how well that worked.

In stretching the FAL design to the bigger cartridge, I am of the opinion that it compromised the gun's accuracy. Some attribute this to the tilting bolt design, but as the owner of a MAS 49/56 I can assure you that is not the problem. Never seen complaints about the Swedish Ljungman or Hakim accuracy, either.

Speaking of the MAS rifle, I wonder if NATO rejecting the French 7.5x54 round as a standard contributed to their half backing-out of NATO. In the MAS 45/56 the 139 gr round at 2700 fps is far above an intermediate round, but it is way more pleasant to shoot than 7.62x51 NATO. Of course, it doesn't have that "magic" 30-06 case head size, either.:rolleyes:
 
I suspect another large "not invented here" factor was that Col Studler wanted his name attached to the next US issue rifle to replace the Garand. Accepting a foreign design was not on his "to do" list. It is rumored that the quid pro quo agreed by Churchill for accepting 7.62x51 was that the US would go with the FN design. See how well that worked...

Studler and the rest of Ordnance had also been peddling the notion that the M14 was going to be "cheap and easy" and easy to produce using much of the existing M1 tooling. Just how big that lie was is easily shown that Springfield was unable to produce the required rifles to make the 1957 IOC date.

Another factor was the shooters at the MTU were told in no uncertain terms that they were not to participate in any testing that might put the T48 (H&R built US FAL prototypes) or the upstart from Armalite in a favorable light.

Infantry Branch was much more concerned with the Battle of Lake Erie and the National Matches.
 
As promised...

First up is a full sized 50.00 "308 Match" that I've owned since the '80's. Back then, most of my shooting buddies had AR's, AK's or Mini-14's. We would go to the range, swap guns and burn up hundreds of rounds of cheap milsurp ammo. The FN was a "grail gun" and I was king of the hill after I traded into mine! I really wanted a Paratrooper, but was lucky to have any version of the FN LAR.

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Good things come to those who wait! I found this 50.63 Paratrooper at a local estate sale several years ago. It was priced right and came with the bipod that I've since moved to the 50.00.

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Beautiful rifles!

I have a 50.63 as well as a couple of DSA's. Cant seem to get enough FALs
 
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