1911s like JMB intended
- Thread starter American1776
- Start date
Military 1911s are loose because one of the requirements was that all parts had to be completely interchangeable, across all manufacturers and their equipment.
A bucket of parts from X pistols, could be reassembled into X working pistols, without regard to who made the individual parts.
Without that requirement, can anyone here say that was really JMB's intent? Looking at his other designs, which are still in use today and are not designed to be loose, I have my doubts.
My Rock River is tight, needed no breakin period, shoots under 3" at 50 yds with hardball ammo according to the test target, and has never malfunctioned even after over 1000 rounds between cleaning.
A bucket of parts from X pistols, could be reassembled into X working pistols, without regard to who made the individual parts.
Without that requirement, can anyone here say that was really JMB's intent? Looking at his other designs, which are still in use today and are not designed to be loose, I have my doubts.
My Rock River is tight, needed no breakin period, shoots under 3" at 50 yds with hardball ammo according to the test target, and has never malfunctioned even after over 1000 rounds between cleaning.
One reason that accurized 1911 type pistols get jams is because they are trying to feed and function ammo that is highly specialized. The pistol was designed to shoot and function with 230 gr. FMJ ammo traveling at 830-850 fps. When one puts 185 gr. or 200 gr. semi-wadcutter lead bullets or 185 gr. JHP bullets into the mix, a GI gun won't function reliably. Another thing to consider is that match shooters shoot a hell of a lot of ammo between cleanings. There are modifications which are a big improvement for the 1911 even when shooting ball ammo, i.e. enlarged ejection port, better sights, smoother and lighter trigger pull. Having a good barrel to barrel bushing fit is an improvement and taking a lot of slop out of the slide to frame fit helps. Regarding 5 yard groups...Well, if a determined knife wielding attacker is that close to you when you shoot...you are likely mortally wounded or dead. Just a tidbit, a departed friend of mine had been tunnel ratting and was taking a break, sitting next to a tree. He still had his 1911a1 in his hand when he heard something and encountered an AK-47 wielding NVA soldier. My buddy reacted first and shot the enemy in the head with his 1911a1. When he got back to the states he bought and always had on hand a Colt Gold Cup National Match. He wasn't worried that a tighter gun would fail him.
There are numerous methods of fitting the frame to the slide. Some require more time or skill, others require breaking-in, and still more don't last as long. All can be said to have been done "properly", it's simply a matter of finding a pistol made in a way that suits your intended purpose.
BillBro
Member
Right on my brother, and they only make about 7000 guns per year. How many do the other big name make per MONTH? It's probably more than that.
Specifically, what makes the Dan Wesson 1911 pistols better than any others? If you would address the accuracy (at least 25 yards), reliability, internal components, trigger job, sights, fit and finish of the frame and slide, I'd appreciate it.
Ranger514
Member
I know some people whose brains rattle when they talk, yet they manage to function well enough in the real world.
I'm 100% certain that this gun is exactly like John Moses Browning intended...
John
John
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
+1. Colt held the original manufacturing rights, then WW1 came along and licensing agreements allowed several others (Remington-UMC, Springfield Armory, North American Arms) to manufacture pistols to meet wartime demands.
Later WW2 brought similar arrangements, with pistols made by Remington-Rand, Ithaca, Union Switch & Signal, and Singer. Additionally multiple subcontractors produced parts for those pistol makers (Savage, High Standard, and a dozen others).
In all cases one of the contract specifications required that every part in every pistol be interchangeable with every other pistol, regardless of manufacturer. This required rather loose manufacturing tolerances.
It was not until about 1960 when competition shooters started the trend toward hand-fitted pistols to achieve the closest possible fitting and most consistent barrel lock-up, and that trend has transferred to the general public as kind of a mystical mantra.
Many of us tend to view these matters in light of one single handgun for our own personal use, and that is what today's manufacturers are providing. I seriously doubt that every part in every pistol by every manufacturer is completely interchangeable now (thus few, if any, modern 1911-style pistols are truly "mil-spec").
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oneounceload
Member
Except today, names like Nighthawk, Wilson, Baer and Brown aren't true "customs"; they're semi-production guns and while fine examples of great computer manufacturing and hand final finishing, I cannot justify the price difference for the incremental increase in accuracy.
YMMV
Thanks for saving me all the typing!
This is NOT a political post! But it seems to parallel the arguments of social justice warriors wanting to strip the founding fathers from memorials just because some were slave owners!
That said, remember what the acceptance standards were when the M1905 evolved into the M1911. As I remember reading, wasn't the M1911 expected to hit a number 2 wash tub at 50 yards, while the Garand was expected to hit the same number 2 wash tub at 200 yards?
At the time of adoption, the accuracy standards were rather liberal while parts interchangeability was paramount! Remember to looking at the standards that St John was expected to work within!
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deadin
US Veteran
Made to military spec (i.e, loose) = Reliable
Made tight may be less reliable but is more precise.
Accuracy is in the hands of the shooter.....
Made tight may be less reliable but is more precise.
Accuracy is in the hands of the shooter.....
Fishinfool
Member
My 2 cents is that when people pay big bucks for a custom / semi-custom 1911, they correlate a super tight fit with quality.
My experience with 1911's is that a 1911 with a case of the "rattles" can still be very accurate as long as a quality barrel is used, and there is proper / tight fit between the link / locking lugs and the barrel bushing. Every thing else is just gravy.
I own several "tight" 1911's that are nothing but reliable, an a couple that rattle and are less than 100 percent reliable, so tight done right is not a bad thing. That said, I have never purposely filled my guns with sand / dirt to test reliability. Frankly, if I expected to have a working gun exposed to such conditions, I would probably carry a Glock.
Larry
My experience with 1911's is that a 1911 with a case of the "rattles" can still be very accurate as long as a quality barrel is used, and there is proper / tight fit between the link / locking lugs and the barrel bushing. Every thing else is just gravy.
I own several "tight" 1911's that are nothing but reliable, an a couple that rattle and are less than 100 percent reliable, so tight done right is not a bad thing. That said, I have never purposely filled my guns with sand / dirt to test reliability. Frankly, if I expected to have a working gun exposed to such conditions, I would probably carry a Glock.
Larry
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hkcavalier
US Veteran
While I can't speak to the accuracy of the military 1911A1 straight from Remington-Rand, Colt, et al., I do know of a real-world story.
The USMC expert pistol cutoff was 330/400 (40 shots, 10 ring target) but was changed to 345/400 soon after the adoption of the M9. The brand new Berettas were more accurate than the 40+ year old .45s.
IMO, it comes down to buyers. People equate a tight gun with good quality and a loose gun with poor quality. GI Joe doesn't have any purchasing power, he gets what he gets. Also, with handheld military weapons, reliability is always going to be more important than accuracy. There are few, inside the military and outside of it, that can outshoot their weapons under stress.
The USMC expert pistol cutoff was 330/400 (40 shots, 10 ring target) but was changed to 345/400 soon after the adoption of the M9. The brand new Berettas were more accurate than the 40+ year old .45s.
IMO, it comes down to buyers. People equate a tight gun with good quality and a loose gun with poor quality. GI Joe doesn't have any purchasing power, he gets what he gets. Also, with handheld military weapons, reliability is always going to be more important than accuracy. There are few, inside the military and outside of it, that can outshoot their weapons under stress.
Colt made two basic starter 1911s.
Government Model.
Gold Cup
Each type has a purpose.
Getting one to do everything has limitations.
A degree of looseness compared to accuracy poll?
Government Model.
Gold Cup
Each type has a purpose.
Getting one to do everything has limitations.
A degree of looseness compared to accuracy poll?
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muddocktor
Member
I have 2 1911s, one low priced and the other very high priced. Both shoot well with no problems. The ATI (low priced) doesn't rattle except for the grip safety making a little noise, but I did go through a definite break in period of around 600 rounds. The second one I bought, which was a couple months ago is an Alchemy Custom Weaponry Prime Elite. I've only had it to the range 1 time so far and ran around 200 rounds through it with zero problems. The ACW is noticeably more accurate than the ATI as it should be, and has an excellent trigger on it. The slide to frame fit seems to be "just right" on it, as it should be with a custom build. Will it shoot if I dump it in the mud? Don't know and don't care as it's not going there to start with.
All parts machined from bar stock. No MIM parts. Each gun is assembled by one gunsmith. No assembly lines where a person installs one part and passes it on to the next.
Accuracy is superb as well as outstanding fit and finish. Triggers are also very well done. No creep or grittiness with minimal over travel.
Sights on carry guns are normally Novak low profile with tritium front sight. Magazines are also first rate. Either Mecgar or Checkmate.
All Series 70.
They are priced right considering what you get and what other 1911 manufacturers offer in the same price range. And most of their guns are beautiful. Not over done and over hyped like others.
Maybe I just scored a particularly good one but I have an early 2015 mfg Springfield Armory RO that is the best 1911 I’ve owned (and I have a Colt and a custom). Lots of solid 1911s out there these days to fit all budgets.
Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
No front cocking serrations, no tactical buzzwords or huge billboards emblazoned on the slide. They got that brushed polish right down to an art.
Ya don't see many of this model in Kalifornistan since it's not on our not-too-unsafe roster.
Every American should own a 1911 and a .357 Magnum wheelgun.
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