This is another advance look at a draft of a coming article. As always, comments welcome.

John

Remington Models 8 and 81 semiautomatic rifles



The date was May 23, 1934. Clyde Barrow and his girlfriend Bonnie Parker were racing down a country road in Louisiana in a stolen 1933 Ford V8, hell-bent on their way to make yet another bank robbery. The pair was already responsible for numerous other robberies, and also for as many as 17 vicious murders in the process. A carefully-assembled law enforcement team headed by legendary former Texas Ranger Frank Hamer had spent 102 days of sleuthing to figure out where the two were and where they were headed. Hamer had painstakingly studied Barrow’s patterns of movement, and these patterns fit a tip he received that Bonnie and Clyde were on their way to a rural bank in Bienville Parish, Louisiana to make an unauthorized withdrawal. It was well known that the two were well armed and that Barrow had vowed he would never be taken alive. Figuring the probable route of their travel, Hamer had “persuaded” the father of one of Barrow’s friends and known accomplices near that road to act as a decoy to stop the car so an ambush could take place. The police took up positions and waited for hours. Finally, at 9:15 that morning, the stolen car was seen careening down the road toward the ambush site, just as anticipated. The decoy waved his arms as the car approached, and Barrow, recognizing the man, slowed down and stopped near him. That was his fatal mistake.

The lawmen visibly deployed, and Bonnie and Clyde were cut off from escape. There were six men in the posse - four Texas officers and two Louisiana lawmen. All were armed to the teeth with rifles, shotguns and handguns. Two of them, Hamer and Sheriff’s Deputy Prentiss Oakley, carried Remington Model 8 semiautomatic rifles. Barrow, in the driver’s seat, looked around frantically for a way out. There was none. One of the officers called Barrow out, but there was no response. Deputy Oakley, well-known as a crack marksman, responded immediately, using his Model 8 chambered in .35 Remington to fire the first shot of the day through Barrow’s left temple, killing him instantly. Over 130 shots were then fired into the car, and Bonnie Parker’s life was snuffed out quickly.

When the smoke cleared, there was no doubt about the deadly outcome. The Swiss-cheesed car eventually wound up on display in a Las Vegas casino.


The Bonnie and Clyde death car, riddled with bullet holes

The future Remington Model 8 was designed and patented on October 16, 1900 by John Moses Browning, who sold the patent rights to Remington. He at that time also worked on what was to become the Browning Auto-5 shotgun. The rifle and the shotgun shared the same long-stroke recoil operating system. For the first 5 years after its introduction in 1906, the rifle was known only as the “Remington Autoloading Rifle.” It became the Model 8 in 1911. This was the first semiautomatic rifle capable of reliably firing full-power cartridges on a par with the popular .30-30 Winchester. The innovative rifle had a 22” fully-jacketed reciprocating barrel. The fixed-in-place box magazine could be filled using stripper clips. Four then-new rounds were developed for the Model 8. The first was the .35 Remington, then the .30 Remington in 1907, and then finally the 32 and .25 Remington. The .35 Remington magazine had a capacity of 4 rounds, while the others could accommodate 5.

John Browning entered into an agreement with Fabrique Nationale (FN) in Belgium to make this rifle as the FN Model 1900. Sales were restricted to areas outside of the United States. This model was made from 1910 to 1929, with only mediocre sales. A total of 4,913 were produced and sold, mostly in Europe and Canada. They are found only rarely today in the U.S.

In operation, the bolt (with a rotating bolt head) and the barrel, locked together, recoil to the rear in firing while compressing a pair of recoil springs. Then the bolt is retained to the rear while the barrel moves forward by one of the springs as extraction and ejection take place. Then the bolt is released and returned forward by the second spring, in the process stripping another round from the magazine and chambering it. The bolt has a hold-open mechanism that activates when the magazine is empty. The Model 8 can be taken down for transportation, as the barrel and receiver will easily separate without the need for tools.

Remington went full-bore with its promotional advertising for its new rifle, and professional artwork showed hunters confronting bears, wolves, and other intimidating animals with it. The idea was conveyed that here was a powerful, fast-acting and reliable semiautomatic rifle that could be counted on in desperate situations. It worked. Sales were brisk, not only among civilians, but also by police organizations, who often had their rifles modified to take extended magazines.

In 1936, with improvements by Remington’s C.C. Loomis, the Model 8 became the Model 81 Woodsmaster. In 1937, the .25 Remington caliber was dropped, making 81s in that chambering rare collector items. In 1940, it was also offered in .300 Savage chambering. There were 5 different grades provided. These were Standard (81A), Special (81B), Peerless (81D), Expert (81E) and Premier (81F). The FBI ordered a number of these Model 81s.

The Model 81 Police Models were specially customized. These had higher capacity magazines holding 10, 15 or 20 rounds. Many had larger fore-ends and some had special engraving for individual police departments. There were two main sources for these custom guns: Peace Officer’s Equipment (POE) of St. Joseph, Missouri, and Hawkeye Protective Appliance Co. of Des Moines, Iowa. Remington made plans to make their own police guns in 1938, and probably counted on working with the POE Company. Only a few of these were made; the quantity is unknown. Collectors pay high prices for them when found; one is illustrated as the lower gun in the photo here.

Production figures show that about 26,000 Remington Autoloading Rifles were made from 1906 to 1911, 80,600 Model 8s from 1911 to 1936, and 55,581 Model 81s from 1936 to 1950, when production ceased. Total production of all models was 162,181.

Five years after the Model 81 was dropped from the Remington line, in 1955 Remington came out with the Model 740, a gas-operated semiautomatic rifle. It inherited the Woodsmaster name from the earlier rifles. Over the years, the 740 evolved to become the 742, 7400 and then the 750. The 750 was discontinued in late 2016. The only centerfire semiauto rifles made by Remington now are the R-15 and R-25 AR-style models.

Model 8s and Model 81s are still found in the hunting fields today, and they have become popular collecting items that evoke nostalgia for the good old days and the good old guns that were made to last for a long, long time. They are landmark American rifles!

(c) 2019 JLM

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Great read.

Great description of why I keep my Model 8 dating to Aug. of 1935.

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Watch & Pray

Great article and thanks for posting. That Model 8 is sure interesting and must have made a stir with sportsman way back then. Only semi from Remington I own is a Model Four in .270 but it is a great looking gun. Thanks again for the scoop.

I'll take one in .300 Savage just because of ammo availability.

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Release the Kraken

Here's the picture I always have to post when these great rifles are mentioned. I sent this to the author of the great Frank Hamer book pictured. But my gun is a 1949 Model 81 in .300 Savage. Too late for Bonnie & Clyde.

Great pics & book. I think it's due for a re-read.

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Watch & Pray

I've got 2 M-8s, One in 30 Rem and One in 25. Wish I had the other calibers in my collection. I got mine before people started collecting them, I think I paid $150 for the 30 and $140 for the 25. Shooting the 25 is like shooting a 22, the rifle is heavy enough there is very little recoil.
SWCA 892

Until around the mid to late 1990s Model 8s And 81s were for sale all very around here for $200-$300 tops. One consignment store had about twelve from one seller. I bought the .300 Savage 81 I posted earlier for $200. Then all of a sudden prices skyrocketed and they were all gone. One oddball for sale was a Model 8 in .308! I don’t know how a gun that was never a .300 Savage was now a .308 and wondered if it was safe. Maybe the barrel half of a .300 Model 81 had the chamber opened up to .308 case length.

My 1st deer rifle was a Rem #8 in 35cal. It was marked as property of a Indiana Prison. I have always wanted a detachable magazine model and a couple of years ago bought a #81 Krieger conversion in 300 Savage. I didn't realize that this conversion although of top shelf machining was not made in high capacity mags.
Gun has a Redfield reciever sight on hump and is a good shooter. The 35 & 300sav were the only ones people were interested in as shooters. The 25-30& 32 Rem cartridges were discontinued making ammo a problem. Now with collector interest they all are bringing top dollar. IMG_2984.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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A Country Boy Can Survive

One of my all time favorite rifles, the first photo is my Model 81 in 300 Savage, and the second is in .35 Remington.

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OGCA Member.

Although this will not be in the future article due to space limitations, I thought you'd like to see a picture of Frank Hamer, the guy who outsmarted Bonnie and Clyde and ended their long string of crimes.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I prefer straight stock on #8 to #81 pistol grip. If anyone has info on the
Kreiger conversions I would appreciate hearing it. As far as I can find he never made magazines only adapted the rifles box magazines.

Nice write-up OP. I have a 1914 Model 8 that belonged to a relative. It’s in .35 Rem so still pretty shootable. Considering taking it hog-hunting in SC this September as a matter of fact. Cool old guns indeed.

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Some Might Say.

I walked into a gun store in Caro, MI back in the late '70s and had some
cash in my pocket.
On the rack was an 81--with a SOLD sign on it.
Closest I came to buying one.
If the interview my wife had there had been a month, or
even a couple of weeks earlier...

I had one in .35 REM when I was young in Santa Barbara Calif shot some deer with it WOW the huge .35 just lifted them little 200# deer right off there feet. JIM FLYNN

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S&WHF # 602

That was a lot of firepower back then. The .35 Remy has a lot of knockdown and 20 shells in the clip is real neat.

I just saw one at yesteryear prices (around $400) at a gun shop while on vacation. I think it was in .300 Savage. If I hadn't already dropped $2500 in that shop, I probably would have picked it up. They are usually $700+ in my area.

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Watch & Pray

I have a couple 30's , a 32, a C grade 25 and a 35cal all in Model 8.
Only one M81 that's in 35cal.

I load all of the calibers. 30Rem brass is still around here and there.
A simple trip into the 32Rem FL die makes it into that caliber.
I lucked into an RCBS 2 die case forming set '30Rem to 25Rem' at a GS for $10. One is a file trim die, but I never have seen the need to use it.
It certainly does make forming the 30Rem into 25Rem an easy one step.
They then need a pass though a FL sizer.
Trying to do the same w/just the 25Rem FL die leaves me with a few less than perfect cases for some reason. I don't like loosing any of this brass.

If you want a soft shooting rifle, find one in 25Remington. They are simply a joy to shoot. They still have more than enough power for deer at reasonable autoloading rifle ranges.

The earliest of the Model 8's were caliber marked somewhat confusingly.
The 30Remingon was marked 30-30Rem
The 25Remingtom was marked 25-35Rem

Some experts at the Gunshows still believe the rifles will shoot the 30-30WCF and 25-35WCF interchangably.

Ballisticaly about the same and the case shapes aside from the rim or lack of it look similar. But they are not the same cartridges dispite what the guy behind the table at the show expounds.

I don't believe Remington ever marked the 32's with anything other than 32Rem.

Stevens used to mark their HighPower Model 425 lever action chambered in the same series of Remington cartridges with the same identifiers,,30-30Rem and 25-35Rem.
That really confused people. They first think they have an older square bolt Marlin L/A in their hand and it gets more confusing from there.

FWIW,,on the bottom of the bbl (cover) on the model 8 there is a small hole. That is NOT an oil hole for lubing the recoil spring(s) inside there.
That is the factory attachment point for the forward sling swivel.
Inside the sheet metal cover there is a small threaded plate brazed into place to accept the swivel base. It is not simply threading into the sheet metal of the cover.

Do not be tempted to use the small sling swivel looking TD screw located on the forend and a sling attachment point.
The screw will probably hold but the fragile loop will not and will pull off the screw.
The M81 did away with the small sling type loop TD devise on the forend and replaced it with a simple slotted screw head that you can use a coin to unscrew. Same TD feature inside, just a different way to get the forend wood off and out of the way. Cheaper to make too.

About 20 years ago my wife bought me a beautiful .30 Rem. Model 8 for Christmas that I saw in a pawn shop. It was $175 and didn’t have a rubber pad on it. Unfortunately when I tried to load it the cartridges wouldn’t sty in. Turns out the barrel assembly with the .30 caliber marking was on a .35 Remington receiver. Guess someone cleaned two rifles and mixed them up upon reassembly. What a shame. The store took it back and I got a pearl handled Colt Police Positive instead.

Hamer didn’t use an extended magazine version. He did own 2 Model 8’s, one in 25 Rem and a high grade presented to him by Remington in 30 Rem.

Those were 15 round magazines, by the way.

The Great Model 8 & 81 >> Frank Hamer’s Rifle

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War Eagle! '10 BCS & '13 SEC

A few years back I got mine for free from a neighbor I was helping out with a few repairs around her place. It had been her father's and when he passed no one in the family wanted it. He had always kept it in a family cabin in Northern MI. I never knew she had it, but when she asked me how to tell if a shotgun was loaded because she want to send it to her Son in Law I asked if she had any other guns. She said she had an old rifle. When I was first pulling it out of the sheepskin case it was in I thought it was a A5, then as it came out more it became obvious what it was. She was happy to give it to me and wouldn't accept a cent. It is a model 81 in .35 and dates from '37.

The Great Model 8! I find them very interesting though i couldn't see myself owning one. A wonderful piece of firearm history

...model 8 in slow motion...

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A Country Boy Can Survive

Another one of the many rifles I wanted but never got around to buying.

This week's "Gun Stories" on the Outdoor Channel actually featured this rifle.

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Watch & Pray

Great post! Just enjoyed watching “Highwaymen.”
I still, on occasion, carry afield my great grandfather’s Model 8 in .30 Rem. Well made and a testament to great craftsman, but I’ve never got used to it’s muzzle heaviness. I also still carry his Model 11 20 ga, which in my hands is a real death day.

I wish someone would clear up what gun and caliber Hammer used in ambush. What he personally owned may not have been ambush gun.

Interesting thread.

I remember when I was a kid my best friend's father had one of these rifles. I don't know whether it was a Mod. 8 or a Mod. 81. I just remember it was kept hanging on the wall in their den. I thought it looked peculiar because of the tube around the barrel and the bulk of the action.

A current friend has a Mod. 8 in .25 Remington and another in .35. I had the opportunity to shoot both of them last summer - my only experience firing one of these rifles. It was a lot of fun.

If a man was to go looking for one, what is considered the most desirable caliber? What about ammo availability?

It should be easy to see that these are outside my normal path!

Curl

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Curly
SWCA #2599; SWHF #626

For ammo availability, 300 Savage, or .35 Remington is the only way to go. Both or still widely available.

The .25 and .32 Remington's are long gone, though you can still find old factory ammo, or go to reloading if you obtained a rifle in one of those calibers.

I like the .300 Savage over the .35 Remington as a personal preference.

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OGCA Member.

I'm no expert, but .300 Savage (model 81) and .35 Rem are the only two calibers that I'm aware of that are still being produced. The others would need to be reloaded. I heard you can use 30-30 Win. recipes to load .30 Rem.

Also, the nicer the better. As parts are becoming obsolete.

And if you really want to learn more about these, check out this website.
The Great Model 8 & 81

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Watch & Pray

The 25, 30 and 32 Remington Auto cartridges can use 25-35wcf, 30-30wcf and 32 Spcl load data with no problems.
30Rem brass is about the only one of the bunch that is still made but it's an every once in a while thing. I still see it in bulk bags at gunshows now and again offered by reloading supply dealers.
With it you can make 25 and 32 Rem from it.
Dies for any of the 3 are not the cheapest to buy. One SH fits them all and it was always an odd one of course.Now the 30AR (?) uses the same case head IIRC so I think that should be no problem.

32Rem I just load w/ 170gr FN bullets intended for the 32SP.
The Mod 8 can handle pointed stuff of course but the lever action component intended for the 32Spec is easy to come by and works just fine. An uncomplicated way to solve the bullet source problem.

35Rem and 300Sav reloading dies and components are much easier to come by. 35Rem brass is sometimes tough to find lately I've noticed.

Model 8 bbls are supposed to run small in dia as far as groove dia goes.
The 30Rem bbl is factory listed as .306d IIRC
The 32Rem @ .320

I've never had any problems reloading and using 308dia in the 30Rem and the 32spcl bullets which usually measure .321d in my 32Rem Model8.
..and I never bothered to slug the bbls either.
My 25Rem I just use .257d jacketed bullets for reloading.
I use minimum or near that loads from the manual and they have always operated the actions just fine.
With that, the 32 has take deer out to 125yrds or so a couple times in the hands of a family member, so there's plenty of power there.
I don't like to push the older guns for no reason.
I just shoot paper now and I've never had one run off to die after being hit.

Parts aren't to hard to find for the 8 & 81. Realize that there are a lot of variation and changes to the rifles over the years and some of the parts are caliber specific too.
Ebay is a pretty good place for parts. People seem to enjoy stripping these out and selling the odd looking parts. Many are way over priced but they sit unloved by buyers. There are enough at decent prices to supply most needs.
Most gunshows won't supply you with much unless you just happen upon a trove of parts from a shop or 'smith that has gone out of the repair biz. Even better when the seller doesn't recognize what they are.

I have a 1909 autoloader,in 30 Remington, marked as 30-30 Remington on barrel, old rifle is plain and has seen a lot of use but still functions flawless and shoots to point of aim.

I get it out every now and again to show the black rifle,and ak47 kids

I recollect a friend at a shooting range one time had a Remington X-100, I think that's what it was called, in .35 Remington. He offered to let me shoot it. I opted against the experience.

That's an interesting historical tidbit about Deputy Oakley firing that first round and instantly killing Clyde. I'm semi-into the history of the gangsters of that period and I never read that before so I checked it out. Sure enough; Oakley didn't waste a second, he just got right to it. I also discovered, and this makes total sense to me considering the reputation of the two and considering the obvious adrenaline flow in the police, that Oakley's shot triggered (no pun intended but I like it) the rest of the officers to open fire. Makes total sense.