All,
This is a topic that I have cross-posted in both the Colt Forum & the Smith & Wesson Forum. My questions are for research I am conducting on firearms from the last half of the 19th century. Please understand that I am NOT trying to start a S&W vs. Colt or Chevy vs. Ford conflict. My concern surrounds some facts and figures of production numbers from that timeframe. I am a long time collector. I have all types and brands of firearms. For the purposes of this thread, I am not concerned with which brand is better. Thanks for your understanding. This is a very long read…………

I am trying to gather figures and timeframes to better understand the widespread usage of full size holster revolvers “in the old west”. So the subject here is civilians who were defensive and offensive carriers of full size handguns in the period of 1870 to 1900.

To better narrow who would be likely to carry this type of revolver, here are some examples of people who I feel would fall into the category during the 1870-1900 timeframe. Cowboys, law enforcement or security, ranchers, backwoodsmen, criminals. Anyone who would have high odds of being involved in defending their person from animals or other humans. This is to distinctly differentiate from say a town or city banker or business owner of the timeframe who carried money deposits & would be just as likely to carry a pocket pistol as a full sized holster pistol.

I ask all this because the numbers I am coming up with do not seem to align with prevailing beliefs for the old west. Below are some figures I have researched. I have referenced these numbers from writers such as Wilson, Jinks, Supica, and other.

The modern Colt full sized revolver of the day would have been the Colt SSA/Bisley. The Smith & Wesson full sized revolver would have been the Model 3 (In all its variations). Here is what figures I have on these two brands:

*Colt SSA/Bisley*
164,100 – Manufactured (ca. 1873-1896)
37,060 – US Military Usage
127,040 – Total Colt SSA/Bisley Manufactured for Civilian Market

*S&W Model 3* (American, Russian, Schofield, New)
162,865 – Manufactured (ca. 1873-1898)
19,232 – US & Foreign Military Usage
143,663 – Total Smith & Wesson Model 3 Manufactured for Civilian Market

The US & territorial population west of the Mississippi in 1890 was 20,594,1605. I picked an imaginary number of 5% of that population as falling into the “Likely to carry a full sized holster pistol”. I have no idea if this number is way low or way high. That is not as important as the fact it is a defined number. Now some more figuring:

1,029,708 – 5% of the 1890 population west of the Mississippi
514,854 – Assumes ½ of the 1880 population west of the Mississippi is male.

If 5% of the male population correctly falls into the category, then 514,854 males in 1890 west of the Mississippi carried a full size holster pistol. In which case:

127,040 – Carried the Colt SSA/Bisley
143,663 – Carried the Smith & Wesson Model 3
244,151 – Carried Some Other Brand/Type

The percentages for the above numbers is:

25% – Carried the Colt SSA/Bisley
27% – Carried the Smith & Wesson Model 3
48% – Carried Some Other Brand/Type

These numbers are not valid for several reasons. It assumes that all manufactured Colt SSA/Bisley & S&W Model 3 revolvers went west and none stayed in the east. Plus the manufacturing numbers are through 1898, yet the population numbers are for 1890, Eight years earlier.

I understand the likely wild variations from the true numbers. But the point is not whether the numbers are exact, but rather if the percentages are close? If they are, this is not how we have been told to understand which full size holster revolvers were overwhelmingly carried in the old west.

More importantly for my research, it appears nearly half of all such revolvers carried were neither Colt SAA/Bisley or S&W Model 3. Were they mainly: Older Colt’s & Colt’s Conversion? Older S&W? Other brands such as Merwin Hulbert, Hopkins & Allen, etc.?

Please let me know where I might be wrong and why. I am not trying to fit figures to support my beliefs. Just trying to understand.

Thanks!

Your guess at 514,854 males west of the Mississippi is understandable, but it’s the wrong number if you’re estimating the gun carrying population: it’s a huge over estimate.

Your estimate includes male infants and children and elderly males, none of which are part of the gun carrying population.

I suspect that the gun carrying population was less than half the number you’ve used.

With close to 300 thousand Colt 1851 Navy built, this model would be in the running for most common full size revolver.

I have no numbers but I suspect that cartridge conversions of percussion Colt revolvers was a significant component of the gun carrying crowd.

And not converted. Lots of army surplus after 1865.

Full size only?
My favorite article in the Sacramento Bee called mining town Bodie, Cal. "Bad Shot Gulch."
"Army and Navy revolvers in scabbards are seldom seen. The usual weapon is a Bulldog revolver in a canvas or leather lined coat pocket."

And consider the thousands upon thousands of cheap guns, "suicide specials" and "Saturday night specials" that served people who could not afford a name brand and did not want to hump a heavy sixgun.

Hi Jim, your comments is exactly what I am ultimately trying to get at. Would like to be able to come up with a reasonable percentage range of, "all the other brands/types used during the timeframe.

I can't help but feel that if one could transport back to that time period in the west, we would NOT see everyone walking around with a Colt SSA or S&W Model 3 strapped to their hip. Like is portrayed in the movies........

More likely many old Colt cap & balls' & their conversions, plus a multitude of everything else under the sun!

Not including the millions of cap and ball revolvers in common circulation at that time is a certain indicia of very bad research.

Real life is not like the movies. A sizeable percentage of cowboys didn't even possess a revolver. I don't know what that percentage was, but contrary to modern opinion, not everyone went around "heeled".

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Only a cold warrior

Hi crstrode,
Please tell me where I might research "cap and ball revolvers in common circulation at that time"?
Not sure I understand how to research "in circulation". Owned yes. When manufactured, yes. Number converted to cartridge maybe. But how would I go about determining the numbers still carried after the Colt SAA came out in 1873?
Not trying to be flippant, I would honestly like to know how you would go about such a research? Thanks!

So I suppose you're going to tell me that "the quick and the dead" was not real? Total buzz kill man.

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When words fail, music speaks.

I think one assumption that gets made often time probably due to cowboy movies and TV shows is that everyone was armed with a revolver of some sort. I also think for the same reason Colt SAA's were pretty much it. I think probably the more likely sidearm until way late in the expansion of the westup to the 1890's would have been any one of the Remington or Colt muzzle loading revolvers with a bunch of cartridge conversion ones thrown in. The reasons would be one cartridges were still relatively new. Two much easier to just carry power, ball, and primers, and probably cheaper, and easier to get. Both S&W, and Colt large cartridge revolvers would have still been fairly new and more costly than the surplus revolvers left over from the civil war.

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Randy

It's an interesting question but not one that you will be able to answer with any amount of accuracy.

Historically accurate information? There have always been more guns in this country than people. Where the guns are at any given time is anyone's guess.

That era (1870-1900) was a very difficult time to be alive. The percentage of people that died from sickness was alarming. So many people lost parents and children, siblings, etc. Left to live their life as best they could... That's the real Old West. On my late father's side? There were 10 kids. Grew up during the Great Depression....4 of the 10 died from disease, and 2 in the Wars. To say we have it good now is an understatement.

People who lived prior to 1900 were often desperate and carried guns just the stay alive. My research suggests that a very large percentage of the population went heeled just to remain unmolested, clothed, and fed. A gun was a very basic necessity in that 30 year period and they were sold "everywhere"!!!


Murph

Also, it should be noted that live rounds would usually have been fired much more sparingly than is depicted in the movies and in Old West television shows. The cost of ammunition was a much larger percentage of ones income than it is now.

Rather doubt there is any way to determine how many of the older guns stayed in regular use. But the introduction of new models doesn't mean they were suddenly widely available. Most early 1873 production went to the government, S&W was hampered by large foreign contracts using much of their production capacity. Newer guns took a while to get into regular service among the general public.

Besides things like gun smith conversions Colt was selling it's open top cartridge revolvers even as the 1873 was in production. Remington catalogs show that they were still selling their Army model cap & ball and you could get it with a cartridge cylinder so you could have both options. And continued to offer them even after their new 1875 model became available.

Over time the newer models became more available but the "Old West" was becoming more settled and for many people the need for powerful, full size guns was lessened. While those in "high risk" jobs (law enforcement for example) were likely to want the newest and best they could get some still held on to their older guns. When lawman Dallas Stoudenmire was killed in a fight in 1882 his primary weapons were two 44 S&W American models but he also had (and reportedly used in his last fight) a cut down Colt 1860 cartridge conversion. Just because a gun was an older model didn't discourage people from continuing to use them.

Those who didn't feel the need (or have the budget) for the newer guns continued to use their older guns or settled for less expensive smaller guns such as the many pocket models available. For many people in the "old west", especially in the wilder parts of the country a good rifle or shotgun was more important than the type of handgun they carried.

Put simply there is no way I can think of you can actually determine any kind of numbers about what people were carrying. There just isn't any kind of reliable documentation outside of a few isolated cases. Pictures are unreliable as many of the guns seen in them were photographers props (which is well documented fact). Though at least photos of dead outlaws which show the guns taken off them can usually be considered accurate in those cases. Newspaper reports may or may not be accurate (if they even mention the guns involved in an incident). Diaries or books from the period might tell you of a few individual choices but can hardly be considered as all encompassing.

In the old west, most did not carry guns in holsters, most were carried in pockets, vests coats, etc.

It would be interesting if you could access records of ammunition sales. Even an outfit like Sears and Roebucks would be informative.

Peters or Union Metallic Cartridge numbers might inform your research,

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Kind regards, Heinz

And if you are using 1890 as your benchmark, you would have to include the DA belt guns of both S&W and Colt as well as the Remington and Merwin & Hulbert offerings. Put me down, too as having a strong suspicion that a large number who carried a holstered revolver stayed with the C&B well into the 80s or 90s unless they were "gun guys" or professionals on one side or other of the law.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

Thanks for all the comment so far. Someone pointed out an error in Smith & Wesson manufacturing numbers. In Jinks book, he discussed Russian contract Model 3 revolver numbers in two sections. I had then mistakenly added these numbers in twice, causing a major error. Here are the correct S&W Model 3 production figures which will obviously change the other portion of the calculations.

S&W Model 3 (American, Russian, Schofield, New)
134,138 – Manufactured (ca. 1873-1898)
68,486 – US & Foreign Military Usage
65,652 – Total Smith & Wesson Model 3 Manufactured for Civilian Market

Yup. Elmer Keith himself used cap and ball revolvers as a regularly carried gun for many years.

btvarner - I assume that everywhere you typed SSA you meant SAA for
Single Action Army. The 1873 SAA was the long 7.5" barrel model, and
was issued to the Army. The 5.5" model came next in 1875. The 4.75"
model, that we see a lot of in the Western movies and TV shows didn't
come out until 1879. The Bisley model that you mention came out in
1894. In between all that (in 1877) Colt brought out their Lightning
model which was a double action revolver. S&W's Schofield model was
introduced in 1875. Thought these introduction dates of the various
models might be helpful to your study.
BTW the original SAA from 1873 with the 7.5" barrel was issued
to the Cavalry, so it acquired the name as the Cavalry model and
the name stuck.

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In Omnia Paratus

I'm no Old West historian, but I believe a full-sized handgun was a low priority for most folks back then. The comment about the 'Bulldog' type revolver seems to add up to the anecdotal evidence.

It was important for those that figured they'd get into gunfights e.g. lawmen, cowboys (fight off rustlers and what not), and of course the criminals themselves. But if you were a farmer, laborer, or tradesman back then, they weren't very useful. A rifle or shotgun much more so.

The 'western' movie genre and what actually took place 99.9% of the time back then have nothing to do with one another. We have more gun battles every weekend in our big cities than took place over several years time over the entire Old West.

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Psalm 27:2

You would also need to take cartridge revolvers sold under military contract out of your production figures. It's my understanding that civilian versions of the Colt and S&W would have been fairly scarce for most of the 1870s.

Dang few cowboys carried a sidearm during their daily chores.
A gun rig bouncing around on your waist while horseback is disconcerting and can be dangerous if you get it hung up while roping critters.
Same thing on the ground. It's more often in the way while wrestling calves and other functions.
If a cowhand could afford a gun, it more than likely stayed in his bedroll the in the chuck wagon or bunkhouse until he got all gussied up to go to town.

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Eccentric old coot

It's an interesting question but I suspect there is/will be no precise way to answer it.

Aside from written accounts such as news stories and books (and perhaps a rare photograph) there is no way to easily determine what types of guns were carried at the time. And these reports would be biased toward those who would have been professional writers or reporters, and limited in scope.

In the time frame mentioned, percussion revolvers would still have been very common and even dominant among full size handguns. They were plentiful from war surplus, easy to feed and (most of all) relatively inexpensive. So my vote would be a Colt 1851 or 1860 or a similar copy.

Cartridge conversions would have been a distant second and I suspect few who had the money to afford a new SAA or model 3 would have been carrying one on the frontier, Teddy Roosevelt being an exception. For those in need of a gun, I would guess rifle or shotgun first by a long shot (pun intended ).

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Cost is a major factor to be considered. Why spend hard to come by cash money on a new revolver when the cap and ball revolver dad had in the war is still usable? Or can be converted to handle cartridge for a fraction of a new one?

The same with long guns, few carried Winchesters, Remingtons or Sharps. Most carried some form of muzzleloader, again probably from the War or handed down.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

I appreciate all the viewpoints. That is what I was looking for. By-the-way, if you study the numbers I gave (Substituting the correction for S&W figures), you will see that I did take-a-way for most of the things discussed here.

The reason I used 1890 is simple. I could find exact manufacturing numbers up to that year, & that was the year of a census. I used only Colt SSA as a catch all (I know SSA is really only the Calvary model). I used only the Model 3 (& all its variants), because these are the 2 make/models handguns seem most often in any movie or TV show.

I wanted to have what I hoped was an accurate year to guns available ratio. As I said earlier, the exact numbers are not as important as the percentages.

Military guns: I did remove them from the final numbers
Population: Figured ONLY population west of the Mississippi & then only took 5% of that figure. On top of that I divided that %5 in half for only men. So, my figures for around 1890 are very small (2 1/2%) of total population........

I did not forget about cap & ball, just do not know how to accurately add such handguns in?

Ultimately I am just wishing I could obtain something that looks like accuracy in the old west for sidearms.......

My actual ulterior motive for this particular exercise is to obtain a better picture of what handguns everyone who had a higher likelihood to get into a gunfight used. If you were to wake up right now & it was 1870-1880-1890, & you find yourself in a small western town walking down the street. Or, out in the countryside and rode long enough to come across several sets of riders, what percentage of those who had a higher likelihood to get into a gunfight would be carrying a handgun, & of what type brand.

I know none of this is possible. But I also feel the stories & beliefs we are given are way off base..............

It may be useful to remember that Bill Hickok carried a pair of Colt 1851 Navy revolvers when he died. It is also true that the military carried C&B 1860 Armies until the late 1870's- well after the Trapdoor Springfield was in service. I agree with the idea that good quality C&B revolvers would not have been quickly discarded when cartridge revolvers became available. Old photography may be a potential indication of the gun ownership of the day. There was not a lot of wealth in the early post civil war years on the frontier and as there were thousands of surplus handguns left over after the Civil War and they were relatively inexpensive in comparison to new Colts and S&W's so the probability is quite strong that C&B revolvers way outnumbered cartridge revolvers in the 1870's and early 1880's. My feeling is that cartridge revolvers may not have become commonplace until the late 1880's and 1890's as the West became more settled and there was more discretionary income available. How long did the C&B era last? I knew a fella who still carried a pair of Colt 3rd model Dragoons back in the 1960's and he
didn't feel particularly underguned.

Yes,Hollyweird has given us a rather warped view of what the Old West looked like. In the final battle scene from "They Died With Their Boots On" Custer (Erroll Flynn) is shooting what look like Remington M1875s.
A lot of the Old West was farm country, hence rifles and shotguns were a lot more prevalent-more practical.

Have you tried an economic approach to the estimation? Prices for revolvers from the time should be available. Look at an old Sears Catalog.

If you can find income data you could project who could afford what at the time were expensive weapons.

A tour of a catalog is likely to give you an idea of what was available. I never bought into the idea that a lot of people carried handguns. Most were pretty poor and worried about eating. A rifle or shotgun had far more versatility for hunting and defense than any handgun.

Do you have data on foreign export sales? How many went to institutions like prisons?

There's an awful lot of variables and little data.

So in 2121 somebody will be here asking how many people carried autopistols (and which ones) way back in 1990 and people will be fussing about how despite being obsolete, lots of people might still be using serviceable old wheelguns. :-)

I think your population numbers are not quite correct. The male to female ratio in the west, especially in more remote areas like mining towns, etc, would have been far greater than 1/2 the population. That also removes the very young and the older/infirm. The west was a young mans domain.

I believe there were over 130,000 exported S&W Model 3s and not 19,232.

3,000 M3R 1st went to Russia
3,000 M3R 1st RF exported
70,000 M3R 2nd to Russia
3,000 M3R 2nd to Turkey
5,000 M3R 2nd to Japan
40,000 M3R 3rd to Russia
5,000 M3R to Turkey
1,000 M3R to Japan

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Teletech:

In the hands of a well trained shooter, no good revolver is ever obsolete. Surprizingly, most police officers are not gun people. In my career, i found that the officer carrying a well cared for but well used revolver was the one I wanted as my wingman rather than the younger one with a new auto, especially if the revolver was one of two, primary and BUG. S&W, Colt, & Ruger revolvers are truly at least 5 or more for sure. The shortest eyewitness statement I ever took in a homicide involved 2 hispanic drug dealers. One was equipped with a 9x18 Mak, the other with a Model 10 .38. Per the eyewitness: "Him gun jam, other didn't."

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SWCA 3417 HF 642 NRA-TC

I would think most people would have more long guns over handguns to feed themselves or whatever; either shotgun or rifle. At least those outside of town. But, this is a different subject to the OP.

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Waiting For The Sun.

It has often been stated that the gun that won the west was likely the double-barrel shotgun, but not as glamorous at six-shooters at the movies.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I don't think factory ammunition sales would reflect anything about the question being asked. Lyman casting tools, lead shot, bulk black powder and primers would have been used by anyone who did a lot of shooting, or who just had more time than money. Which was a lot of folks back then.

I suspect the "gun that won the west" was a sporterized Springfield, or other CW rifle.

That was my first thought too. The fact that only half of the people in the old west were even males. Everything I've read/heard/seen indicates that men outnumbered women by a pretty healthy margin in the wild wild west.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

I have pictures of old cowboys , ranch hands going back to the late 1890's etc . They were carrying a side arm . They weren't gunslingers , they carried for personal protection and protection of the cow herds from coyotes , wolves etc . My wifes ancestors homesteadded the valley in 1879 and the Apache threat was real . I carried a sidearm when ranching in Az and NM for a very good reason . A hundred yrs later I had to learn that " The wild west is not dead " . Regards Paul

Sorry, didn't mean to rattle your cage there. I own and shoot almost exclusively revolvers and appreciate them greatly. My point is that it mostly is and will be the popular conception moving forward in the same way we look back at the cap&ball crowd now. You can still get really terminal lead poisoning from a Colt SAA after all.

It's not much help statistically, but my great-uncle bought a Model 3 in 1875, the year he turned 18. He drove cattle from central Texas to Dodge City for years and eventually became the trail boss for massive herds. He then was sheriff in multiple counties, then an enforcer against rustlers on large ranches in the the panhandle. He was in the way of harm all his life and carried the Model 3 .44 Russian until the day he died in 1903 from, wait for it ... a Winchester that appears to be 30-30. I have the gun and the stories. So, it appears that at least some men of the period needed and acquired the best.

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

Can't leave out all of the saloon sweethearts with Derringers in their garters..........
Or maybe I've seen too many westerns.

There are documented shootouts between soiled doves using derringers. Guns were everywhere back then! Just most often they were obviously concealed! Plug in 10 shots of whiskey and out they’d come!

I’ve seen many antiques with extremely evident holster wear. Especially on the larger heavy framed pistols. Cap and ball guns seem to show the most often.

Mostly on the barrel tip and cylinder. I’d imagine if you carried a pistol on a hip holster on horseback? You’d wear it down very fast!
Unless you had a very snug flap holster. Looking through my antique holster collection? Seems to me that the holsters of that period were pretty light duty. So the gun rubbing on the leather holster would have been a serious issue for a cowboy on a long cattle drive!

You look at Police type holsters beginning in the 1920’s? Very thick leather that held the service revolver very snug!

The 1870’s to 1900? The leather was for the most part thin and not very durable! Even Express Guns show holster wear so if these large frame guns were actually carried a lot in hip holsters? I would wager that we’d see a lot of them with heavy holster wear.


Murph

Most of those pics were studio prop shots or set up shots in front of a bunkhouse etc. Look at pics where they're actually working and you don't see any guns. Most "cowboys" didn't even own a gun. If they needed one it was supplied by the ranch they worked for.

I don't understand why the Bisley is even mentioned. It didn't come about until 1894 and was a target pistol.

My vote for the gun that won the west is the Northwest Trade Gun, a smooth bore musket/shotgun with the distinctive dragon side plate and mitten trigger guard. In use in the Americas starting mid 17th century and still carried on Hudson Bay inventory into the 20th century.

I expect there were more Ball-cap and conversion guns used long after the Cartridge Guns became available.
A matter of economics- most of the folks out West didn’t have much money.
So a new State of Art Handgun was out reach for most folks

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

In the late 40's and early 50's, my brother and I lived with my parents at my Great Grandparents's tiny little house in Albany, Texas. Maybe 600 sq ft for 6 people.

Papa John was half Comanche and the greatest man I've ever known. Their last name was Stockton, after the old Fort Stockton nearby. I guessed that was how a lot of Indians got their last name.

Great grandma told me stories of begging Papa John not to wear his guns to town. I believe the timing was around 1900. So even that late, guys were wearing sidearms into town they didn't normally wear in the country. I don't know what kind of sidearm and NO, I don't know where it went. It would be my most prized possession today.

I know it's just one story, but it's one that I can verify.

Prescut

Main Point - Accurate statistics about how many carried a pistol regularly , or semi regularly do not exist , much less What each of them carried .

To a partial extent , production figures , and ammunition catalogues can give an approximate guess at what in circulation , and in use in certain eras .

You are framing. Your inquiry from revisionist 20th Century viewpont . A more relevant period correct inquiry would be along the lines of : What handguns were carried , or kept reasonably at hand of medium or large size or caliber , with intentions of potentially use for a serious purpose , in percieved occasion of possible need .

Even with my revised parameters , it would be somewhat revisionist to make a cut off of .36/ .38 bore size , as .32's were common , and regarded more favorably then than today . Warm up out of the way , some catagories :

Cap & Ball - They didn't disappear. They were just as effective as every , many people already had them , or the used/ surplus cost was a small fraction of a new fangled cartridge gun .

Colt and Remington factory records exist of total production of Colt Army , Navy , and Remington New Model Army , New Model Navy and millitary purchase contracts . Some more digging of Military records should have at least some partial numbers of guns subsequently battle losses , unservicable , and sold as surplus . Plus post War Colt production .

Conversions of C&B , plus Transitional variants ( ie the Remington 1868 Cartridge gun predated the Open Top Colts , much less the SAA . Factory ammunition for the .44 Remington and .44 Colt cartridges continued well into the 20th Century


" Bulldogs " -Generic nicknames for buncha British and British inspired guns . Actual Webbly calibers include .44 , .442 , and .450 , which then and now would be considered reasonably powerful rounds . In addition to actual Webbly , countless millions of such guns were made in Europe and US , ranging from servicable clones to total junk .

American Pattern DA Revolver ( other than initially mentioned No 3 Variants ) -

S&W introduced the .38 S&W in 1876. It was considered a reasonably serious cartridge , kind of midway between mid 20th Century opinions of .38 Spl and .380 . S&W made a lot of them ( probably more in .32 than .38 , you can each decide how to classify .32 ) . Plus a plethora of mfg , made millions of both Top Break and ( non swing out) solid frame copies and knock offs , both with stubby bbls , and long bbls for belt use . Millions .

And as to the Wildness of the Wild West? Big cities on the coast , and Midwest as a whole had much higher violent crime rates , than the Western Frontier as a whole.

Heavily armed rough & ready frontiersmen , scuffing with each other , and organized and semi- organized groups of them violently taking on other loose groups ? At lot more of them by numbers in the Southern Appalachian region than out West .

Fire up the Wayback Machine, Sherman.
And help me think of a nice way to ask "Is that a Bulldog in your pocket or a Lemon Squeezer?"

This Ohio State Univ. article is interesting with several newspaper quotes from the Old West era.

Gun Control and the Old West | Origins: Current Events in Historical Perspective

But, alas, it does not answer what type gun might have been most carried.