Shiloh Sharps

My FFL guy hung up his spurs and I had to find another. Guy I found has is a retired gun smith, Mostly rifles and he is into black powder cartridge guns. He invited me to join him and some other guys in their Monday evening buffalo shoot;

I did bringing along a nice refinishes 45-70 trapdoor I had picked up from a forum member. The group was 6 guys with various big bore single shots. A couple trap doors and several Sharps and a Winchester high wall. Interesting guns, fun shooting. The have targets set up at various ranges, but the main attraction is a undersized white buffalo at 300 yds. They give it a fresh coat of white spray paint at the end of every session and the big lead slugs make a easy to spot splash using a spotting scope. The big slugs usually make a pretty good puff of dust to show how you blew it.

Anyway 2 of them had sharps replicas from Shiloh Sharps in Big Timber Montana. I went over to Bozeman to pick up 6 tires for my step daughter and on the way home I stopped in their show room. Maybe 24 rifles were on display, all truly beautiful pieces of the gunsmithing art. Beautiful figured wood mated to deep blue and case hardened steel. Each one just screaming hand made precision. The plain Jane ones run a bit over 2K and if you want all the bells and whistles you can go well over 5K for a piece of handmade Montana Made beauty

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If your ever going past Big Timber on I-90 it is well worth your stop. Also about 2 blocks away is a place called The Fort. Been a while since I have seen that many rifles and handguns for sale. Nothing used though. They also had shelves packed full of ammo, some of it kind of odd, like 458 Lott etc.

I am going to start an email campaign to see if i can take a tour of the actual shop portion where they make the Sharps. They do everything in house, but grow the Missouri Walnut and make the steel although they do have a foundry.

My cast bullet shooting interests have taken a different path in recent years and I've lost all enthusiasm for the .45-70 cartridge...

but, I've had a Shiloh Sharps #1 Sporter in .45-70 for more than thirty years. Based on this sample of one, it's a very well built, accurate rifle. For anyone interested in this style rifle, consider spending a little more and buy a Shiloh Sharps instead of something that may turn out to be less appealing.

The Shiloh will likely hold its value better than similar guns and will be more desirable to others at sale or trade time. These guns are incredible cast bullet shooters and accuracy can be phenomenal with the right load combination.

I have four Shiloh Sharps rifles - 3 in 45-70 and a 45-90. Been shooting them since the mid-80's, and I have a 50-90 on order that should be shipping within the next week or so. They are expensive but they are truly a work of art, and they're kind of addictive. And they're great fun to work with in load development. if you like to tinker with handloads, these things are a marvel that will keep you messing with smokeless, black, duplex, etc. for months on end. If you ever get the opportunity and if you have any interest at all in older rifle types and calibers, buy the Shiloh. You will not regret it.

I had a couple of co-workers in the early 90s that were deep into black powder cartridge shooting, and both owned Shiloh Sharps in 45-90. Beautiful guns, and dead accurate with properly prepared ammunition. One of them invited me to his club's Thanksgiving Turkey shoot one year, and I won the string shooting rams offhand at 500 with his gun. He wasn't happy I outshot him, but was happy his gun won!

I never got sufficiently motivated to order a Shiloh, because even then they were very expensive, and the wait was over a year. Spectacular rifles, though!

My Shiloh Sharps rifle is from 1974ish and made in New York (I think Farmington).

There was a dealer in Ohio that started with n order for 2 and repeated in 6 months with an additional 2 and a third time with 2 more. Then they showed up from the first order and the arms race was off! When you would walk in there would be two on display, go back a week or 3 later and there would be two on display, but not the same two! 40, 45, & 50 Centerfire cartridge, and an occasional 54 percussion. This was back in the days when a nice but not too fancy one cost $800. In around the 1990's you never saw them. They sold before they arrived, so no display models. I had always wanted one, but couldn't afford them even before the price climbed. In 2009 I had a pretty worn out Remington Police sniper rifle, I ended up trading for my Sharps 45-70. (It was a fair and good trade, in other words, everybody was still happy several months later!)

On sights: Most all have a mid-barrel sight with Buckhorns. Great for hunting for a few hundred yards. But to do much else, you will want/need something better. And that is a big can of worms! Two major concerns: 1) quality, and 2) adjustability.

Adjustability is a great thing if you want to shoot more than one fixed distance, and/or you want to adjust for angle. elevation and windage. Each of those items costs more money! Sometimes lots more!!!

Quality: My first long range Sharps Model 1874, was a cheap Italian job Imported by FIE, that I bought in 1982 or 83 The long-range sight looked good, it cost an extra $85! The most major problem of the several was, The folding axel pin was also the windage adjustment! Every time the rear sight was folded down and back up you changed the windage! But not in any consistent or predictable way! (I never got a 100-yard group from a rest smaller than 8"!)

The current best dependable sights are made by Montana Valley Arms. For a good 4" tall click adjustable sight that will do 1000 yards will run around $400-650 and a new front sight $60-250+.

I have not worked with my Shilo Sharps as much as I would like but 1" groups with Black Powder ammo at 100 yards are pretty normal. I'm sure I can do better if I put some time in!

Ivan

Ivan the Butcher said:

In around the 1990's you never saw them.

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When Quigley Down Under came out in 1990, the wait time from Shiloh went from long, to 'maybe your kids will get it'...

At one time I owned 7 Shilohs, all different. Now I just have one in 45-90 .
Years ago I took a tour of the factory and saw how they were made and it was fascinating. The only section they wouldn’t let anyone see was where they did the case hardening.

I saw my first Sharps at the age of 10 or 11. It was hanging above the fireplace at a friend's homesteaded ranch NE of Roswell, NM. It had belonged to his great grandfather when he originally settled there late in the 19th century. Unfortunately, I don't remember the caliber or anything other than it was Long and Heavy!
I had wanted one ever since and seriously started saving a few years before Matthew Quigley hit the theaters. I finally ordered mine while going thru a bad divorce and received it after waiting impatiently for 21 months and 10 days! LOL!
Mine is a 45-70, has been fed nothing but Holy Black and my cast bullets. It shoots 405's pretty well, but really shines with the 500 gr. "Government" bullet. When the light is right and my old eyes are up to the task, it'll hold close to MOA to at least 300 yds. (farthest I've been able to shoot).
Shiloh's ain't cheap, but they are darn well worth the money and the wait - IMO. Mine has been a joy since day one and a longtime dream come true.

WYT-P
Skyhunter

Skyhunter said:

…./

/…Mine is a 45-70, has been fed nothing but Holy Black and my cast bullets. It shoots 405's pretty well, but really shines with the 500 gr. "Government" bullet. When the light is right and my old eyes are up to the task, it'll hold close to MOA to at least 300 yds. (farthest I've been able to shoot)…./

/…

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I load 405 gr commercial cast bullets on top of Unique with a 3/4” square piece of 1/4” polyester quilt batting to take up the excel space in the case. It gives me a cheap to shoot plinking load at black powder velocity that works well for the short ranges I have here in Eastern NC.

My black powder load uses my own Lyman 480 gr 457658 cast bullets with SPG lube, seated shallow in the case on top of a card wad and 2F black powder and 3/16” inch of compression. Fun to shoot when I lived out west.

For a few decades I lived about an hour from Big Timber. There is also another Sharps business a few blocks away from Shiloh called C. Sharps Arms.
I went in there a few times, once when a friend needed a part for a Venier sight. Nice rifles, I have always liked the 1875 and 1877 Sharps he sells, maybe because they are different than all the 1874 models.
We found the owner grumpy, never saw anyone else in the store, and his products don't seem to be in the same league with Shiloh.

In contrast, you go over to Shiloh and the store is packed, guys drinking coffee and chatting, friendly staff and racks of superb rifles.
I got this 1874 at a great price because the previous owner had decided to chop the barrel to 18 inches.
Shiloh rebarreled it to 30 inches for a paltry $275, so now I have less than 1K in it.

My Shiloh Sharps is finally on the getting it made list. I will only have to wait a few more months (I hope) [emoji41] I ordered it in March of 2021.


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A buddy had one a few years back. It was a delight to shoot, and scary accurate. His was a piece of art from Shiloh. He sold it not long after, he got bored and wanted something 'new'. Had I known that he would be divesting himself of that rifle, it would still be mine.

Here’s my Shiloh Sharps 45/70 I recently traded into. Haven’t had the opportunity to shoot this one yet, but I’m looking forward to it. Absolutely beautiful craftsmanship.














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I ordered one about 1992 or '93. It was made in Montana. When did they begin production in Montana? My other Shiloh I bought used about 1990. It's the only one I have now; it's not handy at the moment and can't remember where it was made.

Shiloh Sharps had the foundry, at one time all the C. Sharps actions were made by Shiloh. The C. Sharps started getting his actions elsewhere. They have never been a good since.

In post #5 I talked a little about my Shiloh. With a 1" all Octagon barrel 30" long it absorbs a lot of the recoil of a 500-grain bullet at 1300 fps! But you really notice the differences with a 34" barrel! One thing that isn't as obvious (at least to me) was the difference each "Click" on the tang sight has with the different length barrels! No big deal at a few hundred yards but from 300 on it can mean completely missing a life size Buffalo target! You have to work up an accurate load, not too hard to do! Then you need to Range" that load. That means firing loads at specific ranges to actually see where they impact! Ballistic programs do help, but the small bit of inaccuracy in a bullet's B.C. or a few feet per second velocity error, make a huge difference in real life trajectory.

My experience is: The softer the alloy the better!

SPG Lube prints a loading manual with loads to start with, bullet alloy and bullet design. Change one component in a load could change how well it performs at distance.

One of the strange things about BP cartridge shooting is: You don't know how a given load will perform at 200 and 300 yards until you try it. Some loads at 100 will show no promise, but stabilize in flight by 200 or 300, and become great loads! Some 100-yard loads are great, but fall apart further out!

The first accessory you need is a note book! Write every detail down! Overall length is critical in most smokeless rifle rounds. it is critical in in BRC too, but you are also changing the seating pressure and or neck tension too.

Ivan

Ivan the Butcher said:

Shiloh Sharps had the foundry, at one time all the C. Sharps actions were made by Shiloh. The C. Sharps started getting his actions elsewhere. They have never been a good since.

Ivan

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Curious as to when this occurred?
I have an 1875 C Sharps in .45-2-1/10th (.45-70) from around 1985.
I always wondered what the relationship was.

ACORN said:

Curious as to when this occurred?
I have an 1875 C Sharps in .45-2-1/10th (.45-70) from around 1985.
I always wondered what the relationship was.

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I'm pretty sure you could call Shiloh and the can tell you the history. But my understanding there is NO LOVE lost between them.

I'm thinking that Shiloh is on the 3rd owners, and the C. Sharps parting came around the transition time between #2 and #3. (This is just what my fuzzy memory tells me.)

Ivan

Ivan the Butcher said:

I'm pretty sure you could call Shiloh and the can tell you the history. But my understanding there is NO LOVE lost between them.

I'm thinking that Shiloh is on the 3rd owners, and the C. Sharps parting came around the transition time between #2 and #3. (This is just what my fuzzy memory tells me.)

Ivan

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My understanding at the time (around the time I graduated high school in 1983) was that the two companies worked in partnership with each other but had a falling out over creative differences. It resulted in a lawsuit where one of the businesses got the rights to the “Shiloh Sharps” name and the other got the rights to use the “C. Sharps” name.

Since I was fuzzy on the details after 40 ish years I looked over on the Shiloh rifle site and found this:

“My wife and I were insiders in the early days having worked for C. Sharps Arms and with Shiloh. C. Sharps and Shiloh Sharps have always been two separate companies. Originally Wolfgang Droege, owner of Drovel Tool Mfg. Co. began making Sharps replicas in Farmingdale, NY. Early guns are marked Shiloh Products then became the Shiloh Sharps.

When Wolfgang met John Schoffstall at a Shot Show they began to develop a relationship where Schoffstall, who owned a gun shop in Washington state, was selling Shiloh rifles among other products.

In 1979, I was one of two gunsmiths hired to work at Farmingdale by John Schoffstall under Wolfgang Droege to assist in any manner we could. Then us two were hired by Schoffstall to build custom ordered rifles based on Shiloh Sharps barreled actions and this was done under the name C. Sharps Arms but the guns were not marked C. Sharps in any manner. Around this time C. Sharps Arms, owned by Schoffstall, became the distributor west of the Mississippi while Shiloh Sharps owned by Droege was the east of the Mississippi distributor.

Early in 1981 the C. Sharps Arms Co. moved from Washington to Big Timber, MT and a few years later Shiloh Sharps moved to Big Timber and occupied a new building along with C. Sharps Arms still as separate companies. Also around this time is when Schoffstall got Wolfgang to start marking the barrels with C. Sharps, but the guns were always Shiloh Sharps made by Shiloh and C. Sharps Arms became the sole distributor and still the custom shop. The “Old Reliable" marking was trade marked by Schoffstall and was allowed to be stamped on the barrels.

By 1984 the two companies were having disagreements. We left C. Sharps Arms in late 1984. Lawsuits started shortly after and at the end of it Droege built his own building and moved into it and years later he sold the business to the Bryan's.”

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They both make really good black powder rifles, just with a few differences.

Shiloh Sharps prides itself on things like full parts compatibility with the original Christen Sharps owned Sharps Rifle Manufacturing Company rifles, even though they had their share of flaws such as a firing pin that was prone to breakage.

C. Sharps has been a bit more interested in updating the design where needed internally, but at the same time has kept the stock proportions true to the old Christen Sharps design.

Shiloh Sharp also uses a lost wax investment cast process with 4140 steel for the receivers, where my understanding is that C. Sharps makes them from forged billets.

C. Sharps also uses Green Mountain and Badger barrels that are cut rifled, while Shiloh Sharps prefers to make its own button rifled barrels.

Before they split Shiloh Sharps rifles had a long free bore and as I recall that was the case until the Bryan family bought out Droge (1990 IIRC). At or not long after that point they started free boring the rifle based on the customers intended load and bullet.

It’s one of the reasons my .45-70 loads using a 480 gr Lyman 457658 bullet end up seated a bit shallow in the case. I suspect the chamber was originally free bored for the longer Lyman 457132 535 gr Postell bullet that most BPCR shooters were using back in the day.

I don’t mind the shallow seating though as it lets me pack in 82 grs (weight not volume) of FFg using a 36” drop tube with a card wad and 3/32” of compression. Seating it closer to the lands improved the accuracy (poor accuracy was the major complaint about the Lyman 480 gr and similar Saeco 645 “Schmittzer” bullets. Needing more powder to fill the space in the case just added a bit more velocity. If I were ordering a rifle today, I’d send them one, or the measurements from one for chambering purposes. (I’d probably also order a .45-90 instead).

Shiloh Sharps made serious money following the Quigley Down Under movie and I think their waiting period is still over a year. In the late 1990s it was a 4-5 year wait and new rifles in hand were selling for 2-3 times their actual price.

I hate this thread.........

All I've got is a Winchester 1885 Low wall that dates to 1887...... octangular barrel and buckhorn rear sight...... in.......... .22short!

And a Stevens Favorite .22lr which was my first rifle in 1963.

BAM-BAM said:

I hate this thread.........

All I've got is a Winchester 1885 Low wall that dates to 1887...... octangular barrel and buckhorn rear sight...... in.......... .22short!

And a Stevens Favorite .22lr which was my first rifle in 1963.

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I have a Japanese Winchester Low Wall in 38-55, that I bought new in 2005. My original load was with Trail Boss, with the charge "fit to my brass (W-W)" and the charge ending 1/16" below the 255 grain FN Bear Creek coated bullet. I installed a recent production Lyman Tang sight and a Lyman #17M globe sight. (I like the crossed hair insert, but BPRC rules don't allow that insert) From a one-piece rest at 100 yards after zeroing I shot a 20-shot group that measured .407" OD, minus the .377 bullet diameter is a .030 group. That was in 2007 or 08, and my eyes won't do that any longer! These guns and the Shiloh Sharps guns are far more accurate than this human can shoot!

Ivan