9mm Largo Stars

Redcoat3340 · Nov 29, 2022

I've had a couple of Star pistols but let all but one BM and a .380 slip away.
So I went casually went looking again on the big auction site, saw some regular model 9mm Bs, a bunch of BMs, and a lot of 9mm Largo guns.

Now I know basic stuff from a half-dozen internet searches about the Largo round and how it ain't interchangeable with traditional 9mm and that there doesn't seem to be any of it around, and what there is is all on "backorder" and runs for $40 to $60 a box of 50. (Which is way too spendy for me.)

It appears that reloading is the only alternative if one wants to shoot the gun. (There doesn't seem to be a shortage of brass or bullets.)

I don't suppose there are any clever tricks for shooting these pistols, or there wouldn't be so many at such attractive prices.

Anyone have any experience with the round or the gun?

Ivan the Butcher · Nov 29, 2022

I had BK's, BKM's, PD's and a slew of Super B's! I could buy one at a good retail price, package two 25 round boxes of Largo ammo and some corrosive bore cleaner, and resell them for $125 and make fair money!

Overall cartridge length is the same as 9 x19 Parabellum, and some people actually shoot that ammo in the gun (I never tried it!)

You can load Largo length brass with a 9 Parabellum load as long as you keep the same length! I also used 38 ACP/38 Super brass with Largo data. To use ACP/Super brass you need to relieve the barrel tail with a Dremel Tool to clear the semi-rim. Easy Peasy!

When these came in the country back in the early 90's they really were "The best bang for the buck!"

Ivan

DWalt · Nov 29, 2022

9mm Largo is essentially a rimless .38 Super. You might try using .38 Super, it probably will work. I load for .38 Super, 9x23 Winchester, 9 mm Steyr, and 9mm Largo with .38 Super dies. I would bet that 9mm Luger sizing dies would also work, but I have not tried them. Starline makes several types of rimless 9x23 brass, and any of them should work fine. I suppose if the gun does not function well with the .38 Super’s semi-rim, it could be easily ground down. I have not needed to do that. I do have a set of 9x23 dies, but I prefer to use the .38 Super set (Lee).

Before anyone attempts to correct me, I am fully aware that the 9x23 cases have a slight taper while the .38 Super does not. But in practice, the dimensions are so similar that it doesn’t.make any difference which case fits in which chamber. I have a Colt Model 1911 with a 9x23 barrel and .38 Super slide, and it works with any .38 Super and 9x23 cartridge. And I have fired them all. The barrel started out as a 9x19 which I had rechambered to 9x23. I also have an EAA Witness set up for .38 Super which works just as well with any 9x23 cartridge. There is a slight problem in using 9mm Steyr, as the cartridge OAL is slightly too long to fit well into a .38 Super magazine, limiting its capacity.

LVSteve · Nov 29, 2022

Whatever you do, don't try and run commercial 9x23 Winchester in a 9mm Largo gun.

DWalt · Nov 29, 2022

LVSteve said:
Whatever you do, don't try and run commercial 9x23 in a 9mm Largo gun.

I suppose you mean 9x23 Winchester, not Largo or Steyr. I believe Winchester stopped loading 9x23 Winchester ammunition some time ago. That was a very high pressure round, peak chamber pressure is about 50KPSI. I still have around 500 rounds of a special 9x23 Winchester loading made by Winchester for my testing back around 2006-7. MV from my Colt was around 1450 ft/sec with a 124 grain FMJ bullet. I was running a program to develop a different handgun for the USAF at the time. One of the very high-up 4-Stars decided there was a need for a much more potent handgun than the M9. And he liked the 9x23 Win cartridge. What he really wanted was .357 Magnum performance from a semiauto pistol. That was about all he talked about. The project didn’t get too far because of other issues, mainly that the General got canned because of some B-52s carrying unauthorized nukes around the country. See the story below. I was doing all of the basic ammunition performance testing using my personal M1911. That is why I rechambered a 9x19 M1911 barrel to 9x23. If anyone wants to duplicate that load, it was 8.7 grains of AA#5 with a SR primer to take the pressure. But it should be used in only 9x23 Win cases, as they have a special design using a much heavier base.
Air Force leadership fired over nuclear issue | Reuters

LVSteve · Nov 29, 2022

Yes, my mistake, 9x23 Winchester.

hivel37 · Nov 29, 2022

Several years ago I had a Super B , Starline had the brass at that
time. Used 9x23 dies. Used just enough powder to run the slide.
Very reliable and lot of fun.

Fishinfool · Nov 29, 2022

Attached is a rather poor pic of my Star 9mm Largo. Sort of a 1911-ish handgun with no grip safety and different take down. Bought it around the early 1980's, I think I paid $85 for the gun, and 1960's spanish 9mm Largo surplus was something like a little under $100 a case of 1000. Bought 2 cases of ammo.

I have maybe 300 rounds left. That gun is well made, and fun to shoot. Certainly got my monies worth out of it.

Ammo? The Largo round is just about the same, or slightly faster than standard 9mm Luger, which I have not tried in the gun, but understand due to the Lugers slightly shorter case length, will not headspace, but depends on the guns extracter to hold the cartridge in place to fire. I would personally avoid factory loaded .38 Super in these older Spanish pistols due to some having steel being on the soft side. Starline still makes the proper cases. Currant prices on loaded ammo is ridiculous, but I guess it's that supply and demand thing.

Larry

DWalt · Nov 29, 2022

Note that there is a length difference between the 9x19 and the 9x23 chambers. While 9x19 ammunition can in most cases be fired in a 9x23 chamber, it is not a very good idea to do so, as the 9x19 is effectively headspacing on the extractor claw. Sooner or later, the extractor WILL break. Been there, done that. On a Llama Extra 9x23 pistol. I learned that short recoil pistols do not work without an extractor. No replacement extractors for the Llama were available anywhere so I had to weld the tip and re-shape the claw with a Dremel tool and file. It worked.

gwpercle · Nov 30, 2022

My favorite Star was a model PS in 45 acp .
It was sort of a 1911 , 1911 swinging link and barrel lock up and it even resembled a 1911 ...But
1.) it didn't have the pesky grip safety ... I don't like them .
2.) trigger was pivoted like a single action revolver ... not sliding .
3.) extractor was external .

It was well fitted and had a good trigger ...it would outscore my friend's Colt Gold Cup and that irritated him to no end ...
That model PS suited me to a "T" and I loved it ... but in 1995 it was stolen when my house was broken into ... I still miss it some but a Stainless Steel AMT Hardballer fills the need for a 45 acp ...
I do a grip safety modification ( my palm is rather thin and doesn't always push it off) to eliminate that pesky grip safety functioning when it shouldn't , so it fills in nicely for the Star PS
but truth is I still miss the Star PS it was a shooter .
Gary

2152hq · Nov 30, 2022

I had Astra 400 models in 9mm Largo as well as STAR mod A pistols. Both great shooters and the prices at the time were near give-away.
Surplus Spanish 9mmLargo ammo was the main diet. Corrosive so a good cleaning was done.
The ammo also worked fine in Steyr Model 1912 semiauto pistols. They were around at about the same $100 price tag as the Astra 400's. Usually Romanian and Chilean marked.

Then the ammo dried up. So I started reloading. The round loads very easily with 9mm Luger dies. I used 38acp & 38Super brass.
I never had to alter the breech face in any of the guns I had to accept the slight semi-rim of the 38 cases. But I've read were some have had to do that.
I loaded using 9mmLuger data and stuck with loads that were just enough to operate the guns. 115gr RN bullets as a rule.
No tricks in loading,,it's just another pistol round.

Now I only have the Steyr left. I kind of miss the Astra 400 pistol but I doubt I could pull that slide back anymore. That was the reason my Mod600 got sold.

scoobysnacker · Nov 30, 2022

I picked up a Super B (in 9x19) years back, it's a nice pistol which gave me an appreciation for Stars.

The Modelo Super is an elegant pistol design, a sleeker gun than the 1911. To me, the big drawback is the fragile firing pin, got to be careful not to dryfire it. I think there's still a guy who makes replacement pins, I probably need to grab some "just in case".

In 2020 during the ammo panic, I decided to supplement my caliber options. I located a Largo barrel (from a Super A), which swapped in with minimal fitting (I had to gently smooth the external part of the barrel with some 1000 grit sandpaper, about 5 swipes and it fit and cycled smoothly in the bushing). The magazines I had, already known to run Luger without problem, also fed Largo fine.
Sarco had some replacement mags, all of which run both calibers fine too.

I liked this so much, I found a bargain-priced Super A (with native Largo barrel), and sourced a Super B (Luger) barrel... after confirming it functional with both calibers, I gifted that to my son.

The Star Supers, along with my Norinco Tokarev (with 9x19 and 7.62x25 barrels), are now my essential 'in case of emergency' keepers. Both pistols run 9x19 flawlessly, and both require only a barrel swap to run an alternate caliber.... and at the height of the panic, those alternate calibers were cheaper and more available than the "common" 9x19.

DWalt · Nov 30, 2022

The Astra 400 and 600 pistols were blowback, not short recoil. That was the reason for the very strong spring. Disassembling and re-assembling either of those Astras is a job not to be taken lightly. It is challenging to say the least.

9mm Steyr and 9mm Largo cartridges are ballistically and dimensionally very similar, but the OAL of the Steyr is a bit longer. So they might not be interchangeable in all pistols.

jmace57 · Nov 30, 2022

I had a 9x23 Star and Astra which I have given to my brother in law. You could buy 1000 rounds of surplus Spanish ammo for about $70 about 12 years ago. It was so old that about 3 out of 4 cases had a split at the neck. They were OK to shoot once, but the brass was not reusable for most of it.

DWalt · Dec 3, 2022

jmace57 said:
I had a 9x23 Star and Astra which I have given to my brother in law. You could buy 1000 rounds of surplus Spanish ammo for about $70 about 12 years ago. It was so old that about 3 out of 4 cases had a split at the neck. They were OK to shoot once, but the brass was not reusable for most of it.

If it was Spanish, it was probably Berdan primed and you couldn’t have reloaded it anyway.

diyj98 · Dec 3, 2022

I had a couple when the guns and ammo were both cheap, but sold them after I got bored with them and ammo prices started to climb.

DWalt · Dec 3, 2022

jmace57 said:
I had a 9x23 Star and Astra which I have given to my brother in law. You could buy 1000 rounds of surplus Spanish ammo for about $70 about 12 years ago. It was so old that about 3 out of 4 cases had a split at the neck. They were OK to shoot once, but the brass was not reusable for most of it.

If it was Spanish ammo, it was probably Berdan primed and you couldn’t have reloaded it anyway. Back in the late 1960s, the going rate for the Spanish 9x23 Largo ammo at gun shows was around a nickel per round, more or less. I remember those Spanish “Destroyer” bolt action carbines in 9x23 selling for around $30. I wish I had bought one. I think they were used by the Spanish Civil Guard, which was sort of a national police force. I haven't seen one of those Destroyers for many years.

ACORN · Dec 3, 2022

DWalt said:
If it was Spanish ammo, it was probably Berdan primed and you couldn’t have reloaded it anyway. Back in the late 1960s, the going rate for the Spanish 9x23 Largo ammo at gun shows was around a nickel per round, more or less. I remember those Spanish “Destroyer” bolt action carbines in 9x23 selling for around $30. I wish I had bought one. I think they were used by the Spanish Civil Guard, which was sort of a national police force. I haven't seen one of those Destroyers for many years.

I’d like to find a Destroyer myself. A year or so back, during the Covid panic a LGS had 2 for sale. They cut their business hours back because of the pandemic. Coupled with my work hours there was no way to make the 40 minute trip to look at them. They lasted about 10 days before they were bought up.

LVSteve · Dec 4, 2022

DWalt said:
If it was Spanish ammo, it was probably Berdan primed and you couldn’t have reloaded it anyway. Back in the late 1960s, the going rate for the Spanish 9x23 Largo ammo at gun shows was around a nickel per round, more or less. I remember those Spanish “Destroyer” bolt action carbines in 9x23 selling for around $30. I wish I had bought one. I think they were used by the Spanish Civil Guard, which was sort of a national police force. I haven't seen one of those Destroyers for many years.

If you were a criminal being chased by the Spanish Civil Guard, the Destroyer was the least of your worries. They were also issued with Model 1943 Mausers in 8x57.

9mm Largo Stars

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