Sig P320 AD issues

Various odd thoughts prompted by comments......

Without trying to list them, I recall that several brand pistols now have fully cocked strikers as opposed to the Glock style half-cock design.

Dean Speir, then writing as Waldo Lydecker, covered the early Glock problems before that first revamped design of the striker and safety plunger. He reported that the pistols will fire from the normal "half-cocked" striker position. That's not reassuring.

The state police department that adopted the S&W version of the P-99 reported some of those pistols fired when the striker release plunger was pushed. Likely for other reasons as well, that department dropped the P-99 and adopted a different pistol.

Several departments switched from Glocks after seemingly minor production changes had rendered that batch unreliable. (Memphis??) See also Dean Speir on the NYPD Glock 19 malfunctions that bedeviled NYPD and Glock back then.

A recent report had pistols firing when the sharp corner of the breech face/cartridge guide popped primers on loading. Chicago PD issued a warning on that with their Sig 225/226/228 pistols in 1997. Glock had the same problem in 1993.

There's lots that can go wrong even with the simple machines that are pistols.

I own 5 P320's in different configurations and have carried them all. Plus 2 P365's. Never had an issue and have watched all the claims and believed there is more than the claims information to be had. Some have been holster issues, clothing issues and finger issues. Seems to be a theme in AD's.

Is the issue only in 9mm or is it not caliber specific? Have their been reports of the problem with a P320 in .45 ACP?

Would you admit to touching the trigger if you had an AD, or would you blame the gun?

Mike1647 said:

Is the issue only in 9mm or is it not caliber specific? Have their been reports of the problem with a P320 in .45 ACP?

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A great question. Also, there are quite a few variations of the 320. Is it one in specific, or all of them?

Not to derail this thread, but, I have to wonder how much due diligence a company like Wilson Combat did before offering SIG-SAUER® P320/P365 CUSTOMIZATION? Also wonder if any of their customized guns have “gone off” without trigger pull?

There was a thread on this problem a few months ago and the question of (un)suitable holsters came up there as well. I was a bit alarmed since Canada, after nearly a dozen years of faffing about, finally settled on the 320 as a replacement for their WWII-era Browning HPs.

I seem to recall that when Ruger introduced the SR9, they tested it by dropping it 15' onto a concrete floor to ensure it couldn't discharge accidentally.

There have been two distinct problems with the P320. The first is the discharge when dropped and the second is the so-called “uncommanded discharge.”

The first was because the P320 would fire if dropped on its rear causing the trigger mechanism to continue rearward by inertia resulting in the weapon firing. Glock and almost every other maker of striker-fired pistols incorporated a tabbed trigger safety to positively prevent such inertia discharge. Rather than add a tabbed trigger safety to prevent rearward movement of the trigger from inertia, SIG Sauer addressed this problem by reducing the weight of the trigger parts so the weapon would not discharge from inertia if the drop occurred from a greater height. Recall that SIG’s initial ads for the P320 pictured an available tabbed trigger safety. Problem number one would likely never had occurred had the tabbed trigger safety been put on all P320s.

The second problem started after the controversy regarding the first problem died down. The second problem was named “uncommanded discharge” because it is alleged that the P320 just “goes off” without anyone touching the trigger. As yet, a cause for the second problem has not been identified. The allegations are worrisome, with many speculating operator error and others blaming the design.

The military experienced the first problem, and their pistols were fixed before the inertia drop problem was widely known on the commercial side.

I have not seen any mention of the military experiencing the uncommanded discharge problem. I wish someone would do a Freedom of Information request.

I also wish SIG Sauer would make its tabbed trigger standard.

I also wish someone other than SIG Sauer would do a test of the post-fix inertial discharge problem 1.

I have no idea how the second problem (uncommanded discharge) can be tested apart from drop testing. Perhaps violent shaking?

Glock does not have a fully cocked striker in its standard configuration, however the striker is fully cocked with the new performance trigger. Almost all of the other striker-fired pistols are fully cocked, unlike Glock, which is only partially cocked. I have not seen reports of these uncommanded discharge claims with any other brand.

I hope it gets sorted out.

Video proof, number two....

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdRHKDTPht4[/ame]

VictorLouis said:

Video proof, number two....

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Those testimonies seem pretty much incontestible despite Sig Sauer's protestations of a few cases of "unsafe handling." The first one, of the female officer walking to her car when the gun went off... How the heck could that happen if it was holstered and she apparently wasn't touching the holster or the gun?

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Sig Sauer has a very good reputation. I can't see how they could have allowed a seemingly faulty design to get to market.

Maybe the "solution" will be for SS to issue special holsters fitted with a steel deflector strip at the bottom

And from another source, courtesy of VCDL:
Why Did the The Washington Post and The Trace Misrepresent the SIG P320's Safety System in Their Hit Piece? - The Truth About Guns

TJm15.38 said:

I've never felt comfortable with handguns like the Glock and Sig in which the striker is cocked and ready to fire with any trigger engagement intentional or unintentional. I thought Walther had the best solution with the P99AS anti-stress trigger which allowed you to decock the striker after chambering a round enabling a simulated double-action pull of the trigger for the first shot which would re-cock the stricker and release it with a full trigger pull. Every shot after would be like "single action" with a lighter trigger pull. Even though the pistol had no safety, the ability to de-cock the striker made an accidental discharge much less probable.

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Glock demands a PULL of the trigger. Without said pull, the cruciform sits atop a physical ledge that will not allow the cruciform to drop out of engagement with the striker. To inadvertently fire a Glock demands the operator first find a way to depress the trigger safety lever, then find a way to draw the trigger back far enough to move the cruciform off the support ledge where it is forced downward by the connector. This system is completely NOT LIKE THE SIG P320!

The P320 trigger is "set" when the slide is cocked. No further rearward movement is demanded as the rotating sear is "set." A very short and light press of the trigger will deactivate the striker safety drum allowing the pistol to fire.

I own both systems in factory trim as well as DIY systems and the only way Glock fires without command authority is - it CAN'T!

The SIG can, but the trigger still must be pulled and held to the rear to fire... a holster can cause this.

The Glock system is NOT in any way similar to the SIG system. A better comparison would be the XD system but even that has a grip safety that blocks the trigger. The SIG system has no grip safety.

Sigs and XDs have a rotating sear design that uses spring power to engage with the striker sear. A hard enough jolt could possibly cause the striker to disengage, but this can NEVER HAPPEN on a Glock because the cruciform lies atop a rail that will not allow it to "bump" from engagement. Even so, the trigger must be held to disengage the striker block, which could happen in the wrong kind of holster with the Sig P320.

I recall many of the same issues when police forces around the country transitioned from revolvers to Glocks.

My department adopted it last year / year before after 3 generations of P226s. I don’t believe they have had any issues, but if I was still there, I would not feel comfortable carrying it.

VictorLouis said:

Video proof, number two....

Wounded officers say gun fired without them pulling trigger - YouTube

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I watched this video. Look at how much junk that officer is carrying on her right side and how it is moving about and bumping against her. That has to be all over the butt of her gun, and if the holster retention isn't up to it, there's no telling how that gun is moving. Add in the small amount the trigger must be moved for this weapon to fire, and I can see this happening.

Is it the fault of Sig or the company making the holster? Is carrying all that stuff on her strong side "unsafe handling"? Only numerous court cases will tell.

There is evidently a serious problem caused by more than holster issues.

"Amid increasing litigation over an allegedly defective pistol design, gun manufacturer Sig Sauer was hit with claims from another 20 plaintiffs in New Hampshire federal court Monday.
A Saltz Mongeluzzi & Bendesky attorney leading the suit said the plaintiffs were carefully selected to provide an edge in advancing the products liability claims against the defendant.
According to the 145-page complaint, the plaintiffs are “a group of highly trained and experienced firearms users,” all of whom allege the Sig Sauer P320 harmed them.

“Their experience with guns tells you all you need to know about whether this gun has a problem when the most experienced users are having these incidents,” said Robert Zimmerman, a partner at Saltz Mongeluzzi who is based in its Philadelphia office.

The 20 plaintiffs include federal law enforcement agents, police officers, combat veterans and firearms instructors from across the United States.
The complaint characterizes the P320 as “the most dangerous pistol sold in the United States market.” The plaintiffs claim that defects in the gun’s design make it prone to unintentional firing.
Zimmerman said there is an assumption that when a gun goes off, it’s the user’s fault. By curating a group of persons with experience with firearms safety, Zimmerman said, plaintiffs counsel can mitigate that assumption.
According to the complaint, the plaintiffs have identified over 150 incidents of the P320 unintentionally going off. Zimmerman said the plaintiff’s claims are distinct from claims made against gun manufacturers in the past because they allege the pistol lacks an external safety that is present on other similar guns.

Anyone interested in or intrigued by the Sig P320 series handguns should visit Bruce Gray’s FB page and read about his R&D work on the model.

On examination of my new SIG M18, the trigger moves about 1/8", with very little resistance, to disengage the striker block before engaging the sear. Another 1/8" of travel, with significantly more resistance (~6.5 lbs) is required to release the striker. The M18 has a manual safety lever, which locks the trigger, hence the striker block.

The manual safety is an option for other versions of the P320, as is a locking tab on the trigger, similar to that of a Glock pistol.

The partial cocking function of a Glock trigger is trivial, and more marketing hype than reality.

ND's, reported by police agencies, are more likely to occur due to mishandling, and poor design of retention holsters, than to a design defect in the weapon. WAPO is notoriously uncritical of any "facts" which support their narrative.

This one is fresh, and tough to refute....
According to two of the articles, the Chief already ordered 35 GLocks to replace the 320s

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0[/ame]

what else is in his holster