Annealing Revolver Brass?

[GCF]

Well heck, why not? It works w/ rifle brass...

I'm one of those guys that likes to get good mileage out of my brass - w/ out compromising accuracy.

My current batch of .45 Colt Starline brass is going on 6X fired, & I've noticed that cast bullet accuracy from known good loads, seems to degrade w/ multiple X times fired.

All other factors being equal, I assume that this is caused by work hardening of the brass.

Lot of guys seem to think that annealing brass is voodoo science, but I've found it to extend brass life - & restore accuracy potential to centerfire rifle case necks. Just never tried it on revolver brass.

Any thoughts? Spinnin' my wheels - or worth a try? Thanks in advance!

 

[oldRoger]

I am sort of in doubt that any degradation in accuracy is due to hardening I think that straight-walled brass gets worked far less than rifle brass so does not work harden to the same degree.
I just had to retire 2 .44spl win cases w/split s. I almost had a ceremony for them, very old, not balloon headed but countless reloads.
I recently retired some military brass (,45acp) with dates in the 40’s and one 35. The neck tension was still fine after resizing and it was not too short. I just felt that it had done enough.

I would like to hear from some of the others on the forum, annealing would be easy enough, but IMO you will be fixing something that is not broken.

 

[OKFC05]

Anealing is simple, but is one of the many things I do to rifle brass that I do not perform on straight-walled pistol brass.

Even shooting 100m pistol silhouettes, the problems are the wind and my wiggles.

 

[GCF]

I would like to hear from some of the others on the forum, annealing would be easy enough, but IMO you will be fixing something that is not broken.

Thanks for your interest & input.

The chambers on the revolver in question (625-6 MG), seem to be cut pretty tight, & the throats .452". Additionally, I load primarily for modrate pressure accuracy, & avoid the "make it a magnum" trend. As such, I don't think that the brass is getting a huge workout.

That said, it has been subjected to a number of different loads (all cast, but different powders & load levels), that could conceivably have some effect on uniform bullet tension. That's the theory here, anyway...

I would submit for your consideration, that all cases were sized & trimmed +/- .002" when new, & just for S's & G's, are checked for OAL after every sizing. Seems like SOME - but not all, required trimming again at 3X or 4X, to bring the entire batch back to the original +/- .002 spec. I guess my thought is that the OAL variation is due to different load levels, & that the same factor could have an effect on neck tension.

Out of curiousity, do you typically shoot one pet load per caliber?

 

[GCF]

Even shooting 100m pistol silhouettes, the problems are the wind and my wiggles.

Well I hear that, but I'd bet you know it when you pull a shot... Problem here is tight shot clusters (accompanied by fliers), from a gun that will shoot better.

Can't rule out the human factor 100%, but I've just got a feeling that this is a component issue.

 

[OKFC05]

Well I hear that, but I'd bet you know it when you pull a shot... Problem here is tight shot clusters (accompanied by fliers), from a gun that will shoot better.

Can't rule out the human factor 100%, but I've just got a feeling that this is a component issue.

Tried measuring the bullets for consistent size?
All throats same size?

 

[GCF]

Tried measuring the bullets for consistent size?
All throats same size?

Throats are satisfyingly consistent at .452", & the Ballisticast mould, Keith design bullets are a snug slip fit - right at .4515". Hardness is estimated by the caster as between 11 - 12BHN.

The irritating thing is, that I have gotten better performance from these bullets in this revolver. Consistency seems to be degrading, & I don't think it's the gun. Guess that's what got me thinking about the brass. I suspect this latest theory is going to bug me, until it's either proved right or wrong...

In truth, I'm a bit of a hand loading rookie. Been loading auto pistol (.45acp) since the mid 90's, but didn't really start thinking about the technical end of handgun loads, until I started loading highpower in '02.

Lot of potential component factors involved in any type of hand load, much less chasing that one ragged hole group, w/ cast bullets in factory revolvers. Again, your interest is appreciated.

 

[Wickahoney]

I would question just what the "brittle" or "harden" brass would do in a straight walled case to degrade accuracy?? The Only thing I can even think of is more bullet grip with the same crimp setting of the die.

Are the case mouths splitting?

Heck I don't even bother to do it with bottle necked rifle cases. Brass doesn't last forever. While pretty Scotch I don't have a problem with buying some brass every once in a while.

 

[GCF]

I would question just what the "brittle" or "harden" brass would do in a straight walled case to degrade accuracy?? The Only thing I can even think of is more bullet grip with the same crimp setting of the die.

Are the case mouths splitting?

Heck I don't even bother to do it with bottle necked rifle cases. Brass doesn't last forever. While pretty Scotch I don't have a problem with buying some brass every once in a while.

Lotta guys think I'm NUTS for even worrying about accuracy from a 4"BBL revolver. I've even been accused of being a nit picker, for trimming brass...

The heart of my (so far unproven) theory is, that a batch of .45 Colt brass that has been subjected to multiple different load levels ("new caliber to me" load developement in this case), will have lost CASE TO CASE CONSISTENCY due to uneven work hardening.

The theoretical effect of this, would be sort of like mixing your .451" bullets w/ your .453" bullets, then loading them up & expecting same point of impact. Another possible analogy, would be mixing heavily crimped & lightly crimped cartridges.

More bullet grip with the same crimp setting is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as it is consistent - from case to case.

Case mouths are not split, & in fact when trimmed, look great. Primer pockets are still snug. I think this brass could have a lot of life left in it, as it even takes a nice shine. IF it has lost consistency, & IF it can be restored w/ a little propane after supper, I say why not? I can always save the new stuff for later.

Besides, the way things are going politically, good brass could end up being worth it's weight in gold...

 

[OKFC05]

Well, maybe, but it goes against everything I've experienced. I've shot tight groups even with very old brass that was splitting some.

I'd be trying to super clean the barrel to be sure ALL of the lead and copper is out of it.
I would also get very religious about measuring every bullet to see if some small ones are in there. I like a little over rather than a half thousandth under.

My revolvers are little SOBs about ANY stray metal in the barrel or even a half-thousandths undersized bullet, but they really aren't sensitive to what goes on with the case, except for a very slow powder like 296 needing a tight crimp.

 

[GCF]

Well, maybe, but it goes against everything I've experienced. I've shot tight groups even with very old brass that was splitting some.

I'd be trying to super clean the barrel to be sure ALL of the lead and copper is out of it.
I would also get very religious about measuring every bullet to see if some small ones are in there. I like a little over rather than a half thousandth under.

My revolvers are little SOBs about ANY stray metal in the barrel or even a half-thousandths undersized bullet, but they really aren't sensitive to what goes on with the case, except for a very slow powder like 296 needing a tight crimp.

Really can't take issue w/ your (or anyone else here) observations.

I can tell you that my most recent session started out w/ a very clean bore, & cylinders. This revolver has never known a jacketed bullet, & it is not prone to leading. Great little pistola, in fact.

A fouling group (6 shots / lightest load) was fired before I started worrying about groups. Powder, primers, bullets, & brass were the same old / same old.

Again, it's possible that I'm a bit off my game, as lately I've been concentrating more on my 1911's & recently acquired Ruger No.1-A in 7x57.

Thing about it is though, a guy usually has a pretty good idea when he has pulled a shot...

For the record, I just put the blue flame to 30 pieces of 6X Starline, so I'll have an update at some point in the future. I will tell you though, if I do not see any improvement, I won't be annealing anymore .45 Colt brass for a while. Initial cleanup after annealing, is a major PITA.


Here is a little light reading, if anyone has an interest:

Beartooth Bullets > Tech Notes > Getting the Most From Your .44 Magnum

Case neck tension - Cast Boolits

 

[pbslinger]

I have noticed loss of accuracy with subsequent loadings with 100 yard revolver shooting in 44 Mag and 357 Max. Brass seems to lose it's "springiness" as it work hardens. It got to the point with my 357 Max that I could load without expanding. I anneal 357 Max brass and would consider annealing brass that gets hard enough to lose accuracy.

I think you are on the right track. I spin the brass in a socket on my cordless drill in a dark room. Dull red glow and drop in water. It goes pretty quick and can refresh expensive brass.

If cleanup is a chore you must have gotten it too hot. Done the way I do it, it looks like factory annealed brass.

 

[GCF]

I have noticed loss of accuracy with subsequent loadings with 100 yard revolver shooting in 44 Mag and 357 Max. Brass seems to lose it's "springiness" as it work hardens. It got to the point with my 357 Max that I could load without expanding. I anneal 357 Max brass and would consider annealing brass that gets hard enough to lose accuracy.

I think you are on the right track. I spin the brass in a socket on my cordless drill in a dark room. Dull red glow and drop in water. It goes pretty quick and can refresh expensive brass.

If cleanup is a chore you must have gotten it too hot. Done the way I do it, it looks like factory annealed brass.

Well that's somewhat encouraging. Thanks for your input.

I have only recently (last 6 months) started annealing anything. Pretty much brought on by progressivly difficult bottleneck cartridge neck expansion. Annealing helps.

Before I found the cojones to try it, I undertook an info gathering mission - picking the brains of everyone I know, & online searches. Lot of info on the Accurate Reloading forum.

Seems however, that there are as many ideas on proper technique, as there are hand loaders that anneal brass... Far as I can tell, factors in the equation are:
1. thickness of brass
2. type of heat source
3. to spin - or not to spin
4. distance of case neck from heat source
5. water cool, or not
6. how long to apply heat

Like you, I spin the brass w/ an electric drill - but only air cool the brass. I use a small propane torch, that screws directly to the top of propane bottles that are normally used in a Coleman lantern.

I try to hold the neck, so that it stays in contact w/ the inner blue flame, & then give it a 12 second count.

I would say that it is just starting to take on a dull glow by count #10 or 11, so it is possible that I could back off from a 12 count - to 9 or 10.

Had a guy tell me once, that it is really not even necessary to induce a dull glow - & that the metal "darkening" that occurs just before the redness is sufficient.

Water cooling aside, how does my current technique compare w/ yours? Also, do you time the heating process - or just go by color change? Thanks.

 

[cowart]

Problem here is tight shot clusters (accompanied by fliers), from a gun that will shoot better.

You might have one chamber in the cylinder that has a problem. Solution is to number the chambers, and shoot an individual group with each chamber, and compare group sizes. It's not unusual for a revolver to have one chamber that is much less (or much more) accurate than it's siblings.

 

[oldRoger]

Out of curiosity, do you typically shoot one pet load per caliber?

No, it is my personal curse to keep fixing things that are not broken. I usually load heavier than target levels, haven’t shot 3.7 grs Bullseye in .45 acp for years, went to 4.0, then 4.5, now I shoot AA 5 & VV350, all I guess for variety.
My straight wall cases seem to all keep shrinking. I load .357, 10mm, .44spl, very rarely .44mag, & .45acp.

If I had access to a Ransom Rest, and a nice range to use it, decent weather, assuming outdoors, I would probably be consumed with passion to trying to squeeze the last MOA or would it be SOA out of the loads.
It has been my limited experience that those who do it, confine themselves to one chamber of their revolver to avoid confounding the results.

Reality has reared it’s ugly head, in shooting a very fine .22lr barrel on my M41 from a rest I can see that Tenex and Master X group better than CCI Stan Vol. However, shooting off-hand, I don’t group better with the high cost stuff.
My conclusion is work on me, not the ammunition.

 

[GCF]

You might have one chamber in the cylinder that has a problem. Solution is to number the chambers, and shoot an individual group with each chamber, and compare group sizes. It's not unusual for a revolver to have one chamber that is much less (or much more) accurate than it's siblings.

Relatively sure I can rule that one out, as I'm shooting a load that has proven consistently accurate in this revolver. The problem is not that it's always thrown fliers along w/ tight clusters, but that it seems to be beginning to. Hence my thoughts on the brass.

That said, the oddball cylinder syndrome you describe, is both for real - & all too common. Fortunately, whoever built this one, was paying attention - & it's a long way from worn out.

 

[GCF]

No, it is my personal curse to keep fixing things that are not broken. I usually load heavier than target levels, haven’t shot 3.7 grs Bullseye in .45 acp for years, went to 4.0, then 4.5, now I shoot AA 5 & VV350, all I guess for variety.
My straight wall cases seem to all keep shrinking. I load .357, 10mm, .44spl, very rarely .44mag, & .45acp.

Well that's either a curse - or a blessing. I think most tech minded hand loaders are similarly afflicted.

As I hope to learn how to shoot some day, I really have to force myself to resist the urge to experiment, stick to known good loads, & off hand practice. Old guy told me once, that the only way to master the Gov't Model .45, was to stand ass deep in spent brass. Whoo hooo. Good one, right?

BTW, since you have a source for VV powder, give N-330 a try (if you can find it) in your .44spl & .45acp. It's a winner.

 

[oldRoger]

I suppose that if it bugs you, you will have to take a shot at it. If I were inclined to join you in this madness I would design an experiment.
Something like this; you will have to buy some new brass, I suggest Starline, enough for the whole experiment.

If you can shoot a tight group from a rest with five shots it would go something like this:
Load 100 rounds in new brass.
Fire 50. Record five from selected chamber.
Load 45 (2nd firing) and fire 40, Record first 5, shoot another 5 of first gp, record. Save 5.
Load 40 ( 3rd F) and fire 35, Record first 5, shoot another group of 5 of first gp, record. Save 5.
Load 35 (4th F) and fire 30, record first 5 and shoot another gp of first gp. record.
Load 30 (5th F) and fire 25, record 5, shoot and record 5 of first gp.
Load 25 (6th F) and fire 20, record 5, shoot and record 5 of first gp.
You can fire the extra shots from any chamber, mark the chambers and record them if you want to generate lots of data.
Now if I haven’t lost track, you should have a target and at each level of use plus a control target. Further you should have five unfired rounds from each level of use.
If you see no trend you can continue for another 3rds.

Naturally you need to establish a cleanliness routine and follow it at each stage; fouling shots should be the same each round. Naturally it should be the same load, same powder lot, same primer lot, and fired under similar conditions.
You will have the ability to reshoot a round should you see anomalies in the data.

Measure the brass new and after each round. If you see a high or low one you might consider pulling it from the group. I probably wouldn’t but if you are trimming brass, it might be in line with your practice to put aside the longest one.

 

[GCF]

I suppose that if it bugs you, you will have to take a shot at it. If I were inclined to join you in this madness I would design an experiment...

Hmmm, impressive. Gonna have to sleep on this one though. Seriously...

 

[Wickahoney]

There is one other isse. A revolver is NOT a closed system. There is enough variation in most to account for any and all discrepancies. Even when the cylinders are lined bored and the BC gap is uniform the ammount of gas escaping through the BC gap is not and can not be the same from shot to shot, even on the same hole each time around with the same exact load.

I have nothing but time and tinker with rifle brass and loaded ammo for hours and hours and even my hunting loads in non specialized rifles have had every bench rest trick known to man done to them. I loaded for my 6mm Remington #1 for antelope hunting this year. I started with 500 cases and weighed each and every one and segragated them by weight with .01 of a grain. I then checked case capacity and rejected more. I then turned all the necks to a uniform thickness. All brass intended for use had the flash holes drilled and uniformed. All primer pockets were cut flat and square and to a unifrom depth. All flash holes were de-burred and chamfered on the inside. A case mouths were chamfered on the lathe to a uniform depth/angle after the case mouths were squared. All bases were miked and then trimmed to a uniform thickness. All brass was primed with bench rest primers using a RCBS primer seating press and then check for uniformity. The powder charges were dropped and then trickeled to within .01 of a grain. This requires more than your average reloading scale. I seated 6mm Berger Bench Rest bullets that actually work well for hunting thin skinned antelope after weighing them and segragating them by weight to the nearest .01 of a grain. (Berger only gaurantees to with .02 of a grain) The noses were uniformed on my nifty little mepate trimmer. I aleready know the correct seating depth. All work was done using Redding Competition dies except seating with was done with a RCBS Competion seating die. (like the hole in the side to drop the bullet in better than Redding) They shoot sub 1/2" groups out of my 6mm #1.

I have a bullet grip/pull gauge but only use it for benchrest/varmint rounds. Even I consider SOME things over kill.

I think I probably have about 100 hours in the 2 boxes of 20 of loaded ammo. Of course doing none of this has anything at all about killing an antelope and everything to do about my hobby and killing time in the middle of the night when Mr Back says we are staying up tonight. :-(

Load for the 44 mag. Cast the bullets out of recycled wheel weights. Use a 4 cavity Lyman 429421 mold. Size and lube said bullets on RCBS Lubrisizer. Grad some brass off the shelf and clean the primer pockets. Seat the CCI300 Primers on the press. Throw the 2400 in the machine and throw the charges. Seat the bullet. Take the 44 out and shoot the bullets. Total time if I work slow to load 2 boxes of 50 once the bullets are caste and lubed, well under an hour.

I didn't do anything different in the three different competative disciplines that I once competed in. IT's a revolver.

I am the weak link in the chain. I can't blame a loss or a miss on the ammo in over 45 years. I'm anal retentive, not NUTS!!!
;-)