Sigma Let me down

[gatorhugger]

I have been a very vocal defender of the Sigma 9VE.
I have argued that it is just as good as a Glock 19.

Yesterday, a relatively new one failed. It started with light strikes on some new Winchester 9mm Nato. Click. Click. Click.
I was hoping it was the ammo and hard primers.

Then at least once a mag I started getting Failure to ejects. The cases jammed horizontally. This was with regular Winchester value pack stuff.
So I took it apart and cleaned it at the range, and only had time for two more mags before lightning started, no more problems but it has me concerned for sure.
Came home and cleaned it well( it wasn't that dirty to begin with),and
I am going to try a lighter lubricant.No grease, just light Eezox on the rails.
It shouldn't make a difference, never had a problem before, but I am grasping at straws trying to figure it out.
Either Winchester ammo sucks entirely, or I used too much grease, or it's heading back to Smith.

 

[Burley]

Sorry to hear about your disappointment. You could try calling Winchester with that box of ammo's lot number and ask them if there has been any problems.

 

[gatorhugger]

I'll give it another shot so to speak, with different ammo.
I have a lot of different makes, so we will see and I will post the results.
But this was two different problems with two entirely different makes and boxes of Winchester ammo.
So I am not real optimistic.

 

[Erich]

Yes, that would have me on the phone to Customer Service. Although I've heard bad things about Winchester primers of late, from a trusted friend who knows of what he speaks.

 

[gatorhugger]

Yes, that would have me on the phone to Customer Service. Although I've heard bad things about Winchester primers of late, from a trusted friend who knows of what he speaks.

It may have to go back to Smith. After my 990l gets back from being fixed, it may be time for another Fed Ex box and back to the factory. Shame because generally the new Sigmas are supposedly trouble free.

It could be two separate issues with the Sigma. Maybe bad Winchester primers that are too hard and maybe I limp wristed the FTE's.
I hate the entire term limp wristing, because I feel a gun should fire no
matter how the operator holds it, but it could be bad Winchester primers
and a bad shooter.
I'll try some different ammo, keep a firm grip, and see.

Makes me long for another revolver, with a hammer. Yeah they can seize up or get out of time, but revolvers are generally more reliable.
I was reading one report on Sigmas, and the guy was getting FTE's on round 498, round 632, round 718, just no ryhme or reason for it.
Never knew when the darn thing was going to stop. Heard simliar stuff with Glocks.
It's making me re-think Autos. At least the lightweight striker ones.
Here is exactly what mine did several times in only a few mags shot.
If it keeps up, I am carrying my Smith 6906 or Ruger p89. Never had a problem with those two metal framed autos.

 

[Erich]

I quit striker-fired autos for a time after buying an early Glock 33 . . . the micro-compact .357. The problem was that the sealant on those early .357 SIG rounds would get blown back up into the Glock's enormous striker hole in the breechface, and that - combined with Glock's admonition to not clean the striker channel (owing, no doubt, to righteous concern that a lot of idiots would leave solvents up there making things worse) - led to weak-strikes every 200 rounds or so. Eventually, I just got to where I'd tear the slide down and clean the channel routinely, but it put me off striker-fired guns and made me leery of them for quite a while.

Of course, then I had a SIG-Sauer P232 that developed light-strike problems, and THAT was a hammer-fired gun. I guess the truth is that any mechanical system is going to have problems in some specimens.

I'm sure they'll work out the issues with your pistolas, but I'm sorry to hear of the run of bad luck you've been having. I had one of those with S&W a year or so ago, so I know what it's like to dread calling customer service again. Hope it all gets worked out soon - just thank Heaven that you're not dealing with Taurus . . . S&W will make it right for you at no cost to you but your patience.

 

[Fastbolt]

It's not possible to know what's happening with any particular gun when discussing issues online. I wouldn't presume to be able to diagnose what happened with the Sigma in question unless I had been present to observe the shooter & the gun when the 'problem' occurred and had a chance to examine the gun and ammunition for myself.

However, Winchester 'budget' 9mm isn't known for being overly powerful, and reduced (or borderline) powered loads can certainly lend themselves to incomplete cycling issues, which can result in failures-to-extract/eject.

Combine the potential for lower pressure loads with a shooter tendency for a relaxed/unlocked grip, or even a momentary relaxation of grip firmness during the recoil cycle ... and functioning issues can occur.

It's been opined by a number of folks that NATO spec 9mm can have hard primers, too.

I try to avoid using the term 'limpwristing' whenever possible, preferring to describe it as an issue of grip stability and/or an unlocked wrist.

While it's certainly possible to experience extraction/ejection/feeding issues resulting from a grip instability condition with a metal-framed pistol, it does seem more common to see the average shooter experience it with a lighter weight polymer framed gun. Some folks have suggested that it's a matter of the pistol having less mass, and therefore less resistance to the frame being moved rearward during the slide's run when the gun is in recoil. It seems plausible.

Then, a shooter's tendency to even momentarily relax their grip and/or wrist lock would only exacerbate the potential for a functioning problem to occur.

A semiauto pistol is intended to be supported by a firm grip.

Yes, I realize a number of folks would like to think a pistol would be able to consistently and repeatedly reliably function in the absence of a proper grip ... but things often happen differently than everyone might wish in the real world.

Even in armorer manuals for metal-framed pistols (used in the LE field) there are probable causes of problems listed which have correcting grip issues and making sure the shooter's wrists are properly locked as the solutions to observed problems.

Naturally, occasional light-strike issues in striker-fired pistols can have other potential causes. This might include solvent/lubricant contaminants in the striker channel, or even a mechanical issue ... (like an out-of-spec trigger bar guide in the 99 series pistols; a damaged striker spring; damaged striker keepers; unevenly installed keepers which have a lifted edge/seam creating drag on the inside of the striker channel; a safety plunger and/or spring issue, etc).

The use of good quality ammunition, a pistol properly cleaned & lubricated and in normal working condition, and a shooter using a good grip technique (proper grip stability for each shot fired) can help experience optimal functioning from a pistol ... but sometimes things can happen (and not be recognized) which create the potential for a functioning issue.

Day and day out the most common source of functioning issues is often attributed to shooter-related issues, which can include maintenance issues, like it or not. (And it seems that polymer pistols get more than their fair share of those occurrences.) After that comes ammunition issues ... followed by actual gun-related issues. The more common 'percentage splits' offered for these probable causes of problems is often given as being 95% shooter-related, 3% ammunition-related and 2% actually gun-related ...

 

[shawn mccarver]

It's been opined by a number of folks that NATO spec 9mm can have hard primers, too.


...

Let's see: NATO = military; 9mm NATO is the standard caliber; many makers' 9mm NATO has hard primers for use in open bolt sub guns; the "M" in M&P still stands for "Military," does it not?

The bottom line is that S&W has too many light hit issues in its revolvers post Frame Mounted Firing Pins and in its auto line (remember the 459 was initially disqualified from the first military trial in the 80s because its firing pin strike energy was just a tad too light?

M&P pistols should work even with hard primer ammo if they are truly intended for military use.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

Let S&W fix the gun. It might be the firing pin block hanging up or not timed right. Could also be a spring or firing pin issue also.

 

[gatorhugger]

Let S&W fix the gun. It might be the firing pin block hanging up or not timed right. Could also be a spring or firing pin issue also.

Yep gonna have to.
I took both the Stainless and Allied Sigmas out this morning.
Less than 50 rounds in the Stainless and two more FTE, and one ight primer strike. This was different ammo, aquila, and some Sellier, and some Winchester. Mixing it up.
I was alternating rounds and different mags.
It's the gun. Multiple FTE and Failure to ignite primers.

And here is the kicker. The new Allied Sigma, started doing the same thing. Two Light primer strikes!!!

I am thoroughly disgusted.
I shot my 6906 and had no problems, so I changed out and made that my car gun for now now.

2 brand new Sigmas, both with issues. On top of the newer 990l Smith already has and is fixing, I am going to have all three polymer framed pistols in the shop at the same time.

Pretty unreal. I am done with Smith Polymers or any polymers. I will get them fixed and sell the Sigmas at least. Make me an offer of two like new Sigmas and 6 mags and they are yours.
I am Sticking to the 3rd generations, my experiment is over.

 

[Doctruptwn]

I had a problem with my allied forces model randomly failing to eject or failing to return to battery. I was buying this gun from a relative that had shot approximately 500 rounds through without cleaning the gun. After I got it home and cleaned it properly it has operated flawlessly. My 40 ve has operated flawlessly since I got it over 1000 rds have been shot without a single issue.

 

[gatorhugger]

Well my guns are spotless and lubed. If firing 50 rounds causes FTE and light primer strikes, then there is a design issue.
My 6906 at the top could fire 1000 rounds and never burp.

 

[Doctruptwn]

Agreed does seem to be some issue with yours. Be interesting what they find out. Neither of mine are "new" the Allied is about a 1year old and the 40ve is probably closer to 2-3 years old.

 

[gatorhugger]

Well since the factory has the 99, I decided to send the Sigmas to Frank at LSG.
Maybe he can get them back faster and figure out what is going on.

 

[Erich]

a design issue

Ahem. As sympathetic as I have been and remain to your plight, I feel that now you're just getting melodramatic. There are thousands of these guns out there functioning just fine. You've had problems with two.

Perhaps you have a couple of bad ones. Perhaps you've been using bad ammo. Perhaps there's a bit of "pilot error" going on.

But Chicken-Littleing about a design flaw on the basis of what you've experienced - particularly where the Sigma is really very clearly a bold copy-with-very-few-engineering-changes of the most popular (and quite functional) design on the market - begins to take real liberties with credulity. As I said supra, I know it must be very frustrating and I really hope that this gets fixed for you soon.

 

[Spotteddog]

There are three fine looking weapons in that picture.
If I might ask, is there some type of white lithium grease on the trigger levers of the bottom two? I ask, because I don't know the lubing directions for that product line?

 

[TNDixieGirl]

In my opinion only, if there were a "design issue", there would be a ton of Sigmas out there with the same problem.

I've fired approx. 2,000 rounds through mine, using every type of ammo on the market, and have never had the slightest problem.

Best of luck getting your issues resolved. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[OKFC05]

If I might ask, is there some type of white lithium grease on the trigger levers of the bottom two? I ask, because I don't know the lubing directions for that product line?

If it is grease oozing out, that could well be the explanation. Sigmas don't work with heavy lube.
Four dots of slide lube, two dots of Remoil on the sear and barrel, and perhaps some dry silicone in the trigger group, at most. NOTHING on the striker.
Just like a Glock, they run best almost dry.

 

[Lee in Quartzsite]

Just curious if you have ever stripped the slide and cleaned the firing pin and channel? It doesn't need to be lubed, just cleaned as it tends to accumulate a lot of crud after many rounds. I had two Sigmas for many years and neither ever had a failure of any kind after thousands of rounds.

Good luck with whatever you end up with!

 

[gatorhugger]

If it is grease oozing out, that could well be the explanation. Sigmas don't work with heavy lube.
Four dots of slide lube, two dots of Remoil on the sear and barrel, and perhaps some dry silicone in the trigger group, at most. NOTHING on the striker.
Just like a Glock, they run best almost dry.

Nah, I thought it was a lube issue. If you read my original post.
I was using pure teflon, it's not lithium grease, it feels like butter. The most expensive lubricant in the world.
But I removed it all except for some on the trigger.
Those guns were screwing up with nothing but a few drops of Eezox oil.
That white you see is just some that was left over, the guns have no grease inside them at all.

I don't think I am being melodramatic at all.
I have defended Sigmas vigorously.
HOWEVER. What are the odds that I get 3 semi auto Polymer pistols
in ONE MONTH that need to go back to the shop? I would say slim to none if the design is good.
Note that the issues did not occur right away, it was around round 100 issues started.

I have read others ( and frankly discounted) reports of light primer strikes and FTE in both Glocks and Sigmas.
In fact I was reading( I have it at home on my favorites) a report from a police captain pulling all his Glocks for this reason.
The Glock reps coming to the states saying it was impossible, but leaving shaking their heads. These guns sound suspiciously just like my guns.

Just maybe there are a LOT of Sigma owners who never make it to round 200???
They shoot a box, like I did at first, put it away and never get to 200.
Or they shoot a box at a time and clean it well between use and never get malfunctions. Mine don't act up on the first box at all.
It's not really a "range" gun, so could be that case?
I don't know.

I do know I have two brand new sigmas doing the exact same thing, with different ammo, different mags, different lubes, and both are barely
hitting the primers.
Believe it or not, it's happened. That is either a design flaw or two bad runs of parts in guns bought from companies hundreds of miles apart.
I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't have the guns sitting in my
backseat either.
Either way, it ain't my fault, Smith produced a couple of lemons.