Anybody still carry the 38+P+ 147gr Hydra Shok

Erich,
Why do you find the Federal +P+ to be a better choice then the Speer GD short barrels and would you carry them in an Airweight?
 
I trust that the heavier made-for-the-FBI round is going to meet their penetration standards, and I've worked on so many cases in which adequacy of penetration has been an issue.

I am certain that S&W would not approve these +P+ rounds for use in their Airweight .38 Specials. As to what I do . . . well, I don't think I'll talk about that. :cool:

Everyone should be aware that I generally only use the rounds in question as back-up speedloader fodder for my .38s.
 
Is this the same +P+ load that the California Highway Patrol used in their model 68's?

Erich, if penetration was an issue (I take it that is is the "lack of, rather than "over") why not simply go to a heavier bullet?

I don't know history of the shoot outs or anything, but why did they get away from the old LSWHP 158's? (Isn't that THE FBI load?) I believe that this ammunition does not go through car bodies or windshields, if I am correct? Wasn't that the reason why they bought .357's as early as 1935-36?

Changes in politics and policies I suppose. :(
I guess fellers didn't like that heavy chunk of iron on their hip.

I can only imagine that if of those fellers would have had a Model 27 or a Registered Magnum with appropriate ammunition...
 
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I came into the Bureau five years after the Miami shooting, and have met some of the guys involved. The idea that the Bureau scapegoated the whole thing on Jerry Dove's well placed but under-penetrating 9mm Silvertip is largely a creation of the gun press, apparently in reaction to the ammo tests that led to the adoption of the 1076 and different carry loads for the other calibers.

I can tell you that the entire shooting was mercilessly critiqued within the Bureau, and changes were made in a lot of areas, including tactics and equipment.

There were fourteen agents in the rolling stakeout that day, looking for the black Monte Carlo taken from a murdered owner a few days before. It was bad luck that the agents involved in the takedown had only two long guns readily available - both shotguns. McNeil elected not to use his, and has said since that he deeply regrets the decision. Mireles used his, but it was largely ineffective anyway. Other agents in the stakeout, who arrived after the shooting, had M-16s and MP-5s.

Now, every agent who wants one can have a shotgun, M4, or MP-5/10mm, and it can be mounted in a secure rack inside the vehicle rather than locked in the trunk. Body armor is required, and its use is stringently enforced (though it wouldn't have made a difference on 4/11/86 given the weapons used and the location of the injuries on the agents).

The Bureau took a look at the types of shootings agents are typically involved in, and designed a series of tests to make sure issued ammo met a certain standard. It is definitely biased toward deeper penetration, and that's fine with me. We don't issue ammo to other agencies or departments - they can use what they want.

As flop-shank said, its easy to take years to critique decisions made in seconds. Those agents knew Platt and Mattix were both hard core killers, based on their previous robberies. They identified them, made the decision to stop them, and killed both of them, though at a terrible price.
 
Good thread. I use the Fiocchi 147 gr HP's in my 337. I'm afraid to use the +P+'s in it though. (Although if I chronographed each load the Fiocchi's would probably be close to the same as the Hydrashocks-they kick like a bear!!! maybe some things are best left unknown ;))
Thanks for the linky to the shootout-interesting reading.
 
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Andy, I generally carry heavier bullets. I use the rounds in question in my speedloaders because their jackets protect them from dings to a greater extent than the lead bullets I usually carry.
 
Andy, I generally carry heavier bullets. I use the rounds in question in my speedloaders because their jackets protect them from dings to a greater extent than the lead bullets I usually carry.

Ah. Makes perfect sense.
I had a little leather "speedloader sheath" made for a J-frame speedloader for my pocket, that way the lead doesn't come off on my clothing by carrying it loose in my pocket to deal with this same problem.

My pockets were turning grey- not good.
 
I've seen that speed strip pouch in one of your postings were can I get one of those I've been looking all over?
 
Erich
Thank you very much I will order in the morning

Pete
 
(tested for+p+)

For informational purposes only when S&W introduced the M640 38Spl serial numbers with the prefix of (CEN) were marked per the following: (TESTED FOR+P+). Later production the (Tested FOR+P+) was deleted. The marking appears in the frame cylinder window. I have one so marked. The rational for subsequent models with the marking deleted was there was no industry standard for (+P+) at that time.
 
You're most welcome, Pete - I carry that "Rough Out" pouch more than any other single piece of gear I own (save for my wallet, wedding ring, crucifix, and Fenix light, I suppose). It has never had problems and has never failed to protect bullets in the loaded rounds. Use yours in good health, and give my regards to Eric Srigsley at SideOut.
 
Actually, the very last of last FBI .38 Special ammo was on contract with Winchester, a 147 grain JHP +P+, Q4296. That was purchased during the last few years that revolvers were authorized as personal weapon, before those guns were completely removed. It is no longer in the catalog, but here is a link to the spec sheet:
Law Enforcement - Online Catalog - Spec Sheets
 
Yes, indeed! :) Any chance for some "real world" chrono data?
I have some Erich (Federal version), and will be including it in the Old versus New .38 Special comparison. This ammo was also issued by U.S. Treasury. An agency made arrangements for agents to purchase personal 640 no dash models for backup and undercover use. The revolvers were not specially marked, but the boxes were, and a special product code was used for these guns. Qualification was required using the subject load. Later, the agency purchased the .357 versions of the 640 for issue to the agents as BUG, but the issue ammo and qualification was still with the +P+ .38 Special.
 
Now, is that "Federal version" to which you refer the same as the Hydra-shok version that I have in my pocketses? I was wondering about whether the Winchesters were loaded to substantially the same velocities as the Federals, that's all.
 
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