TexasRaider
Member
Old cop,
Glad you came out without felonious modifications to your chassis. Job well done!
Glad you came out without felonious modifications to your chassis. Job well done!
38 +P+ 110gr JHP Treasury Ammo Test
- Thread starter BreakerDan
- Start date
First, I believe that you were indeed told that. Secondly, I have a hard time swallowing that entirely . However, as you added that factoring in of better training today coupled with a semi-auto .40 S&W being easier to shoot well than a DA revolver with hot 125 gr. Magnums, makes it more palatable. As well, it is not a direct "apples to oranges" comparison as we all know the semi-auto holds more ctgs.
My personal belief is that the .40 S&W, especially with the hot 155 gr. JHP's as loaded by Rem. especially for the BP, is devastating. The 180 gr. bullet was never intended for the .40 S&W but was transitioned into service by the penetration junkies from the 10mm. As well, the 180 gr. is a cream puff load to shoot for today's younger shooters who have a great deal of difficulty shooting real "barn burners" as most are not really gun people per se.
In conclusion, I think the .357 SIG is the best of both Worlds as you get .357 Mag. 125 gr. performance in an easier to manage semi-auto. It's a Helluva ctg.
Doug M.
Member
1) There is no real performance difference in the modern service handgun calibers (9mm, .40, .45, .357Sig) with quality ammo in either calibrated testing or in actual shootings. Doctor Roberts' materials go into considerable detail on this. There are also indications that the agencies which use the .357Sig have such good performance because they train seriously, more so than others. I am aware of other agencies that train seriously compared to the majority, and they have good success with their ammo. I suspect that the training (physical and mindset) are more important variables than the ammo.
2) The failure of a 9mm Silvertip, which is 3 or more generations removed from modern service ammo, was important then, but is basically a tragic data point in a learning curve now.
3) Wasn't it Dove who lost his glasses and couldn't see well enough to hit anything? (I really don't recall, but one of the agents experienced that.)
4) The FBI standard is 12" minimum, and I think 18" maximum (I have not looked for a while). They are looking at the possibility of shots that have to go through intermediate barriers, from clothing to glass, to the arm of a suspect. They are also considering that most Americans are ... overweight at best. There have been cases of offenders whose body fat was enough to reduce bullet effectiveness. Remember that the purchase rule for equipment is that is has to work adequately well under all conditions.
5) No doubt that FBI training was inadequate. The poor handling of their sidearms (unholster it and drive with it on your lap or whatever? Really?) was an issue. Remember that our understanding now that a pistol is what you carry when you don't expect a specific problem and a long gun (carbine or a slug loaded shotgun) is what you take if you do is in large part developed from that event.
6) Feebies are not cops. Some have been, but many have not. Vehicle stop tactics were not a solid part of their training, and from what I have been able to discern, it is still marginal.
7) They did not have adequate numbers of personnel on scene to deal with motivated offenders, and IIRC, the local PD (Metro-Dade?) was not aware of the event until called by nearby residents because of the shooting. At least car of agents was too far away cuz they had to stop to pee, and they had the "heavier" weapons (mostly MP5s, I think - sexy, not sound).
8) Over-penetration is not often near the problem that missing is.
9) Placement is king; penetration queen. The target area for shooting offenders has not been well taught, and a lot of targets still reinforce improper skill sets.
Side issue: I do not recall the Illinois SP using the Federal 9BPLE +P+ load, but they may have. The round that they used that really started to develop a sound reputation was the Winchester 9mm +P+, first in 115 grain, then in 127 grain as the Ranger line evolved. I have carried both and would without concern.
2) The failure of a 9mm Silvertip, which is 3 or more generations removed from modern service ammo, was important then, but is basically a tragic data point in a learning curve now.
3) Wasn't it Dove who lost his glasses and couldn't see well enough to hit anything? (I really don't recall, but one of the agents experienced that.)
4) The FBI standard is 12" minimum, and I think 18" maximum (I have not looked for a while). They are looking at the possibility of shots that have to go through intermediate barriers, from clothing to glass, to the arm of a suspect. They are also considering that most Americans are ... overweight at best. There have been cases of offenders whose body fat was enough to reduce bullet effectiveness. Remember that the purchase rule for equipment is that is has to work adequately well under all conditions.
5) No doubt that FBI training was inadequate. The poor handling of their sidearms (unholster it and drive with it on your lap or whatever? Really?) was an issue. Remember that our understanding now that a pistol is what you carry when you don't expect a specific problem and a long gun (carbine or a slug loaded shotgun) is what you take if you do is in large part developed from that event.
6) Feebies are not cops. Some have been, but many have not. Vehicle stop tactics were not a solid part of their training, and from what I have been able to discern, it is still marginal.
7) They did not have adequate numbers of personnel on scene to deal with motivated offenders, and IIRC, the local PD (Metro-Dade?) was not aware of the event until called by nearby residents because of the shooting. At least car of agents was too far away cuz they had to stop to pee, and they had the "heavier" weapons (mostly MP5s, I think - sexy, not sound).
8) Over-penetration is not often near the problem that missing is.
9) Placement is king; penetration queen. The target area for shooting offenders has not been well taught, and a lot of targets still reinforce improper skill sets.
Side issue: I do not recall the Illinois SP using the Federal 9BPLE +P+ load, but they may have. The round that they used that really started to develop a sound reputation was the Winchester 9mm +P+, first in 115 grain, then in 127 grain as the Ranger line evolved. I have carried both and would without concern.
TexasRaider
Member
Doug M,
Pretty sure the ISP did carry it, if my foggy old memory serves, they were the first large agency to begin carrying 9mm autos. In fact, I think they contracted with Federal to develop a 9mm that was supposed to be the semi-auto cartridge clone of the 125 gr 357 Mag. I think that's why it got dubbed the "Illinois Load" in the first place, but I could be wrong.
Maybe a retired ISP Troop on the board can chime in with more insight....
Pretty sure the ISP did carry it, if my foggy old memory serves, they were the first large agency to begin carrying 9mm autos. In fact, I think they contracted with Federal to develop a 9mm that was supposed to be the semi-auto cartridge clone of the 125 gr 357 Mag. I think that's why it got dubbed the "Illinois Load" in the first place, but I could be wrong.
Maybe a retired ISP Troop on the board can chime in with more insight....
The Border Patrol used the 158 gr. JSP .357 cartridge up until the early 80's. The thinking was that the service wanted a hollow point round that penetrated less. The idea of dubbing a hollow point round a "controlled expansion round" and making it a .38 SPL was that it could be more easily sold to the (not so law enforcement thinking) higher ups in the Immigration and Naturalization Service who were the parent agency of the Border Patrol at the time. It was thought that the higher ups would have been appalled by officers carrying "dum dum" rounds. After a couple of shootouts where the 110 gr. .38 SPL +P+ "controlled expansion" round didn't measure up to it's expectations, displayed in tests, the round was dropped from service. Having broken the hollow point wall, the service adopted the 125 gr. JHP .357 round which served it's purpose until the USBP adopted semi-auto pistols and the .40 S&W cartridge.
Doug M.
Member
*
We do a have a retired Captain who served through at least part of that period on the forum. It is in fact possible that they carried one or more Federal load, as they experimented a lot with different loads, some of which were mediocre, the rest of which were worse.
I bought the 115 grain to which I referred off the contract when I was a small town officer in Illinois, so along with other info from those days I am confident that it was that load that was known as the "ISP load". I got it at a price that would make you cry now - and the cost was so little different from ball that it was worth using as training ammo.
TexasRaider
Member
Man, oh man. The glory of the old days. I remember buying Remington generic 115 gr ball for about $8.95 a box. Of course, that's when Blazer .41 Mag was around $14.99 a box, too, and I thought that was outrageous.
I wish I had some of that old Federal Illinois load 115 gr +P+, it was great stuff. And the old boxes that ammo came in back in the 70's and '80's is cool. At least to older fossils like me.
I wish I had some of that old Federal Illinois load 115 gr +P+, it was great stuff. And the old boxes that ammo came in back in the 70's and '80's is cool. At least to older fossils like me.
The retired ISP Cap'n has stated that they first used the 9mm BPLE to great success, but that ongoing testing of ammo lots did not give them the requested 1,300 fps "floor" they required and Fed. refused to load it any hotter if I recall his story correctly. The ISP then went to Win. who then made the famous Ranger 115 gr. JHP +p+ that was hotter. It averages right at 1,365 fps in my G19.
cavnamvet
Member
I have 2 boxes of Win Ranger 38+P+ jHP RA 38110HP+..
Picked up at gun show couple years ago but never had occasion
to try any in my model 19-3 or 60-14.. Maybe I will now out of curiosity..
Back in the day, when my department authorized .357 ammo,
My load of choice was the Win 145 gr Silvertip... don't know if they are still
Available but found them to be accurate.. took the head off a huge
Diamond back rattler at around 40 yards once..
With regard to the FBI shoot out mentioned earlier, I was on duty that day
but had moved from my old department in Dade up to Broward County (Lauderdale).. One of my former co workers from Metro Dade worked on the follow up and told me the FBI op was totally screwed up from a tactical standpoint to include lack of firepower to lack of communication with the locals.. some say to save face the head of their training unit blamed the disaster on an ammo failure.. In reality it was a high cap auto loading rifle vs handguns.. No doubt the 115 gr silver tips were a weak round and shared in the blame but not to the extent it was blamed For the loss of life.. the agents fought valiantly With what they had and ironically the fatal wounds inflicted by Merelis were from a model 10 .38 special revolver.. After experimenting with some new carry loads they obtained MP5's, which they should have had in the first place.. or something equivalent..
Unfortunately, our federal government has always ignored the pleas of law enforcement to allow us not to be out gunned by the bad guys and now
terrorists as well. Hopefully President Trump will set things right..
Picked up at gun show couple years ago but never had occasion
to try any in my model 19-3 or 60-14.. Maybe I will now out of curiosity..
Back in the day, when my department authorized .357 ammo,
My load of choice was the Win 145 gr Silvertip... don't know if they are still
Available but found them to be accurate.. took the head off a huge
Diamond back rattler at around 40 yards once..
With regard to the FBI shoot out mentioned earlier, I was on duty that day
but had moved from my old department in Dade up to Broward County (Lauderdale).. One of my former co workers from Metro Dade worked on the follow up and told me the FBI op was totally screwed up from a tactical standpoint to include lack of firepower to lack of communication with the locals.. some say to save face the head of their training unit blamed the disaster on an ammo failure.. In reality it was a high cap auto loading rifle vs handguns.. No doubt the 115 gr silver tips were a weak round and shared in the blame but not to the extent it was blamed For the loss of life.. the agents fought valiantly With what they had and ironically the fatal wounds inflicted by Merelis were from a model 10 .38 special revolver.. After experimenting with some new carry loads they obtained MP5's, which they should have had in the first place.. or something equivalent..
Unfortunately, our federal government has always ignored the pleas of law enforcement to allow us not to be out gunned by the bad guys and now
terrorists as well. Hopefully President Trump will set things right..
