M625 equal to a Ruger Blackhawk?

[jrplourde]

Just recently bought a new M625. A friend gave me a copy of an article from I think "Complete Book of the .45" and the author was Chuck Taylor. It speaks to the 45AR indicating it is a stronger shell with more volume.

In any event his max favorite load (M625) is a 255gr lead bullet with 14.5 gr of 2400 pushing it to a velocity of 1100 ft/sec. Well according to an older Lyman reload manual (before the bleeding lawyers) that is equivalent to the max load in a Ruger/Contender 45 Colt.

Any thoughts on that?

Bob

Recent edit: This has been the most informative thread I've recently read thanks to the input of some very knowledgeable and concerned folks. A very good read and super links. Thanks all.

Bob

 

[gwalchmai]

I think if you want a .454 Casul you should just buy one. 625s are too rare to take such chances with. Besides, a 255gr slug at 900 fps will kill anything in North America.

 

[jrplourde]

I think if you want a .454 Casul you should just buy one. 625s are too rare to take such chances with. Besides, a 255gr slug at 900 fps will kill anything in North America.

Sir, I was quoting an article. 14gr of 2400 under a 158gr 357 is enough for me. I'll let the hero's do 14.5 under 255gr.

Bob

 

[Joni_Lynn]

The cylinder lock is off set in a Ruger cylinder but in a S&W cylinder it is dead center on the chamber. Take a good look at how thin the steel is between the chamber wall the inside of the cylinder locking notch cut. It can't be nearly as strong as we all wish it was.
Some of the writers that wish to talk about how hot they can load up a gun may not realize how many of their readers assume that to be the unfailing truth in reloading. Load warm & hot loads at your own risk. (and the risk of bystanders)

 

[sonny]

The Ruger single-actions and the Contender are capable of significantly higher pressures than the double-action 625. I don't think you'll find many folks to dispute that.
Ruger Blackhawk .45 colt: 250 gr SWC @ 1200 fps is a decent load.
625's? Can't comment, but CAN refer you to the expert. Also, be aware that Smith made significant (read stronger) improvements to their double-actions with various engineering improvements with the 25's/625's.
Read John Linebaugh's "Writings". You'll be glad you did...and much more informed when you've finished.
Here is the link:

Welcome to John Linebaugh's Custom Sixguns - John's Writings

Also check John's article here:
Gunnotes...Smith & Wesson Mod 25-5

Although I always see the same reaction to these posts...If you want more power, go get a Magnum. I guess I don't disagree with that, although I am also "guilty" of wanting to know (maybe not shoot) what the maximum permissible pressures/ velocity are for a given gun model and caliber. I think it's good, very, very good, to know this, and really has NOTHING to do with meaning that you want to shoot it that fast.
Sonny

 

[jrplourde]

Thanks Sonny. Well said.

Bob

 

[sonny]

Besides, a 255gr slug at 900 fps will kill anything in North America.

I wouldn't willingly bet my life on that...with a griz or a large black, and I won't even mention a brown or Kodiak. No way! You might be right...it might kill "anything in North America" but the shooter might never live to see it. Maybe, maybe if you get a brain or spine-shot with a good hard-cast slug while that sucker is coming at you at 30 mph...
I wouldn't use that load on anything larger than deer or 400-lb black bear. If you would increase that load to a good Keith recipe: 250 gr hard-cast @ 1200 fps, I would buy it for max of grizzly. Difference of opinion is all; no offense meant. And my experience with bears is insignificant.
Sonny

 

[Erich]

It is my understanding that velocity gets you distance with this bullet weight/caliber, not additional penetration. That said, I'd certainly be fine with 255-grains/900 fps on a NM black bear (and I - rarely - carry such a load on hikes up Bear Canyon). However, having glassed big griz in Glacier (the "bad bear" section), I wouldn't want to be near one of them with anything shy of a 12-ga pumpgun with slugs or maybe a .308 and a 20-round mag.

 

[sonny]

It is my understanding that velocity gets you distance with this bullet weight/caliber, not additional penetration. QUOTE]

You're looking at bullet type, weight in grains, velocity, penetration in wet newspaper, penetration in wet newspaper and bone.
These are taken from various years of Linebaugh seminars and probably can be found under HANDLOADS.COM, or from John Linebaugh's website.
Obviously, the .454 Casull is basically a hot-loaded .45 Colt, using the same diameter bullet, different velocity, harder cast bullet with the Casull so it doesn't come apart under high velocity.
Yes, velocity has primary importance in trajectory (what you said). However, the data shows that velocity does also play an important part in penetration, although even John Linebaugh feels that 310 grains @ 1150-1200 fps is good enough for bear protection in his native Wyoming back-country (see his "Writings").
Of course, there are all kinds of caveats to be used with this data. Most animals don't need 49" of penetration. Also, the Casull 300 gr @ 1600 produces 24 ft-lbs of recoil, contrasted with only 10 ft-lbs using the .45 Colt 250 gr @ 1200 fps in same-weight gun. Which gun do you want to hang onto, particularly if you need a quick second shot?
I think that compromise is in order, which (to me) means John Linebaugh's recommended loads. Can see his links in above posts.
Sonny


.454 Casull data
454 Casull Punch Bullet 315 1,600 n/a 49.0 4" bone + paper
Year tested:2004
454 Casull Freedom Arms JFP 300 1,625 34.0 n/a The bullet tipped at the end of its travel and was undamaged
Year tested:2002
454 Casull LBT 300 1,364 38.5 16.0
Year tested:2003
454 Casull Corbon Penetrator 360 1,500 45.0 n/a The bullet tipped at the end of its travel and was undamaged
Year tested:2002

45 Colt data
45 Colt Factory LRN 250 950 21.0 n/a
Year tested:2004
45 Colt LFN 330 1,289 22.0 n/a
Year tested:2004
45 Colt Unknown 300 1,137 23.5 4.5
Year tested:2003
45 Colt Keith 265 944 24.0 n/a
Year tested:2004
45 Colt LFN 350 1,030 26.0 n/a
Year tested:2004
45 Colt Mt. Baldy Keith 265 675 27.0 n/a
Year tested:2004
45 Colt CPBC LFN 335 1,158 29.0 13.0
Year tested:2003
45 Colt Keith 310 1,250 36.0 n/a The bullet tipped at the end of its travel and was undamaged
Year tested:2002

 

[max]

IMHO they ain't the same.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Some are fond of comparing the penetration of expansion bullets vs solids in order to deceptively skew the resulting conclusions.Tests done by cherry picking apples vs oranges examples are not honest.

Heavy slow moving bullets are not without merit and of course they can kill.The problem is when someone is not honest and declares that they are actually superior to higher velocity.When the same"non expanding" solid is driven at a higher velocity,it will penetrate more....period.

Why will a 460 Weatherby penetrate far more than a 458 Winchester mag? (when using the same well constructed solid)...velocity.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Well, I've been there and done that...........

I refuse to be put under the thumb of mamby pamby woosified loads that are in the manuals today.

Elmer and Skeeter used S&W revolvers for their load development and so do I.

I have retraced, notice I said retraced, their steps in several instances. Never have I felt unsafe doings so with a Smith, never.

Yeah, the cylinder lock is in the center of the chamber, ok, got it. I think it was on those old hand ejectors that EK used to give us the 44Mag. Mercy!

I have a M625JM. It has a 4" barrel and I have shot near the EK load out of it many times. It consists of a 255gr LSWC over 14gr of 2400. My mold is an H&G #502 and with my alloy cast right at 250gr. That bullet with my homemade lube developed 1029fps from the 4" barrel. It also developed a 25fps ES and 10.29SD with Winchester primers.

With Wolf standard large pistol primers the ES and SD opened up a bit, still acceptable in my way of thinking, flawed as that may be!

To be honest though I would rather use the Speer #8 load for my exact bullet with SR4756. I get more velocity with it and no unburnt powder.

I hope this helps. My M625JM will handle those loads much better than I will. For the most part, it gets a diet of 200gr H&G #68 @ 750-850fps. When I want to though, I push those 240gr LSWC right up to the 1100fps mark with no qualms at all.

As a side note, he did it in a M1917 too! Now that is something I wouldn't do.

 

[mkk41]

Most reloading manuals have 2 or 3 different power levels of .45 Colt data. They all emphatically state that the S&W Mod.25 revolvers should use the same level (lowest) as that recommended for Colt SAA and clones.

 

[gwalchmai]

I worry less about the Smith exploding than I do about it loosening after a few hundred rounds.

As far as whether a sane .45 Colt load will kill a SuperGriz and how long it will take, I really don't care. Any time I'd need to know would be a case of my being prey.

 

[sonny]

Most reloading manuals have 2 or 3 different power levels of .45 Colt data. They all emphatically state that the S&W Mod.25 revolvers should use the same level (lowest) as that recommended for Colt SAA and clones.

John Taffin had originally agreed with the above, and Mr. Taffin wrote that on p36 on his BIG BORE SIXGUNS. John Linebaugh, who has been building .45's, .475's and .500's for the last 30 or more yrs, disagreed with Mr. Taffin. John Linebaugh was able to convince Mr. Taffin that the Model 25-5 is stronger than that manual you're talking about above. Yeah, here is the reference:
Linebaugh's Custom Sixguns - Heavyweight Bullets
(See his notes on the Smith and Wesson at bottom of his article)

I have seen Mr. Taffin, in print, agree that the model 25-5 is stronger than he, at first, had understood...and that it is, indeed, stronger than the Colt SAA. And... I like and respect both of these fine gentlemen.

 

[sonny]

IMHO they ain't the same.

Sir, you are quite correct. Perhaps the only similarity they have in the bullet diameter.
Sonny

 

[Dale53]

The OP apparently was talking about a 625 in .45 ACP/Auto Rim (NOT the .45 Colt).

Linebaugh was talking about the .45 Colt on a Smith platform.

I have a couple of .45 ACP 625's and I will not be trying for more than 1000 fps (at most) with a Lyman 454424 Keith 250 gr bullet.

Auto rim cases have almost EXACTLY the same capacity and strength as .45 ACP cases contrary to popular opinion. The only difference (in the same brand) is the rim.

I'll not be at all adverse to loading 1200 fps with a 250 gr Keith bullet in my .45 Colt Ruger Bisley SS Blackhawk.

As has been stated, for deer and black bear, I wouldn't feel undergunned with a .45 caliber 250 Keith at 1000 fps. I have taken both... Further, I have been in on the autopsies of more than 35 black bear (most have been rifle kills) and have some idea of what it takes. Primarily what it takes is good hits. Shoot them around the edges and you can REALLY have a problem. Shoot them well and it only becomes a minor discussion around the camp fire.

Not nearly enough discussion is had about shooting skill under pressure. We all tend to talk "equipment" instead of shooter performance. Of course, this IS an equipment forum, isn't it>)).

Dale53

 

[Ron H.]

Not nearly enough discussion is had about shooting skill under pressure. We all tend to talk "equipment" instead of shooter performance. Of course, this IS an equipment forum, isn't it>)).

Dale53

Sir, maybe there should be a marksmanship/training forum here. Or if not a full forum, at least a set of stickies on marksmanship fundamentals, DA shooting, useful drills, etc. Seems to me that such a thing would have considerable value.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

smith crazy, Dale53-

Both of you made very good points, though seemingly differing in view. I agree with things said in both posts. Skip's point about what Elmer and company were using to develope those loads is right on the money, and can't be disputed.


Dale's point about hitting your target where it counts is a very valid one that should be stressed far more than how much horsepower a load developes. Stick a good bullet in a sore spot, and it's all over but the picture takin' and back slappin.

I will ad this to the mix- The OP is talking about the 625. It has the exact same cylinder wall thickness/strength of the 625 in .45 Colt, or the 25-2 and 25-5's. They can both safely handle loads to 23,000 PSI as per Smith and Wesson who rates their acp guns for Plus P loads which run what?23,000 PSI. Mmmm....

That means that in the .45 Colt you can safely shoot the old Keith load of 18.5 grains of 2400 under a 255-260 grain SWC. I know too. I do it all the time. I don't know exactly what that would need to be reduced to for the AR round, so I'll take old Elmer at his word and believe the 14-14.5 grain loading will be safe in an ACP/AR gun using the 255-260 grain cast SWC.

Linebaugh says that they are even safe to the same levels as the Blackhawk, but keeps his maximum to 25,000 PSI loads. The Ruger and Smith have almost identical cylinder wall dimensions, with the exception of the bolt notch location. Every man is free to do what he believes is best with his equipment, but I have tried a ot of Linebaugh's loads, and they have never given one small hitch in performance or function in my Smiths. I just don't make it a full time thing, since it isn't needed for 95% of my shooting.

I know that Dale53 is an avid caster and shooter. I will respectfully differ with him on the strength of AR brass though. The extra large extractor groove on ACP brass by its very existance leaves less material thickness right where the wall and head meet, than in the AR brass.

 

[jrplourde]

Marksmanship

Sir, maybe there should be a marksmanship/training forum here. Or if not a full forum, at least a set of stickies on marksmanship fundamentals, DA shooting, useful drills, etc. Seems to me that such a thing would have considerable value.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

Boy would this poor shot be all over such a forum!!!!!!!!!!

Bob