I will support your initiatives in this effort. Write up the posts and I'll sign the petition.
M625 equal to a Ruger Blackhawk?
- Thread starter jrplourde
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jrplourde
Member
I will support your initiatives in this effort. Write up the posts and I'll sign the petition.
That goes for me also. I'd love to see it.
Bob
Guys, I've posted this in the Lounge. The thread's called "New forum on marksmanship?"
Thanks, and Semper Fi.
Ron H.
Dale53
Member
I am a Keith fan and pretty much go along with his writings. However, today's 2400 is somewhat hotter than during Keith's time. It would be nice to have a pound of powder from his time compared to what we have today.
Brian Pearce, of Handloader's staff, has written a good bit about this recently. I respect his advice in this regard. Following that, I would back off Keith's recommendations a grain or so in the .45 Auto Rim and also the .44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt (you would still have the same performance).
Not to beat this thread to death, but I agree with "Smith Crazy" about the 625 (.45 ACP) being suitable for 23,000 psi. The problem is that I know of no bonafide pressure data available at that level for heavy bullets in the .45 ACP. I DO wish Hodgdon would list pressure data for heavy bullets in the S&W 625. That would keep some of us "out of the woods" and give us a measure of safety that we may not enjoy if we "assume"...
In the meantime, I'll load the Keith 454424 (252 grs) to 1000 fps limit (chronographed) with a suitable powder (2400 would be fine) and feel both safe AND consider that satisfactory for deer size game (and we have rather large whitetails in South Western Ohio. Ours are bean and corn fed, doncha know
>)).
FWIW
Dale53
Brian Pearce, of Handloader's staff, has written a good bit about this recently. I respect his advice in this regard. Following that, I would back off Keith's recommendations a grain or so in the .45 Auto Rim and also the .44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt (you would still have the same performance).
Not to beat this thread to death, but I agree with "Smith Crazy" about the 625 (.45 ACP) being suitable for 23,000 psi. The problem is that I know of no bonafide pressure data available at that level for heavy bullets in the .45 ACP. I DO wish Hodgdon would list pressure data for heavy bullets in the S&W 625. That would keep some of us "out of the woods" and give us a measure of safety that we may not enjoy if we "assume"...
In the meantime, I'll load the Keith 454424 (252 grs) to 1000 fps limit (chronographed) with a suitable powder (2400 would be fine) and feel both safe AND consider that satisfactory for deer size game (and we have rather large whitetails in South Western Ohio. Ours are bean and corn fed, doncha know
>)).FWIW
Dale53
Dale, I am the one who posted about the 625 handling 23,000 PSI. I have no idea if smith crazy believes that or not.
I am a huge Pearce fan, and he is my main reference source for data these days. His articles are full of good loads, and 99% of them are pressure tested. In Handloader
#254 starting on page 60, there is an article by him on handloading the .45 AR. He lists several loads with heavy bullets in AR brass. The only loads not pressure tested were the ones with the RCBS 270SAA 280 grain cast swc, and he says that he examined the primers under high magnification to compare them to the others fired with known pressure. I have most of those loads listed in other articles by him, and he states that they are pressure tested, in those articles. There are several listed that push bullets of 240 grains and heavier. From 972 for the 240 gr. H&G swc, all the way up to 921 for the RCBS 270 SAA bullet.
I am a huge Pearce fan, and he is my main reference source for data these days. His articles are full of good loads, and 99% of them are pressure tested. In Handloader
#254 starting on page 60, there is an article by him on handloading the .45 AR. He lists several loads with heavy bullets in AR brass. The only loads not pressure tested were the ones with the RCBS 270SAA 280 grain cast swc, and he says that he examined the primers under high magnification to compare them to the others fired with known pressure. I have most of those loads listed in other articles by him, and he states that they are pressure tested, in those articles. There are several listed that push bullets of 240 grains and heavier. From 972 for the 240 gr. H&G swc, all the way up to 921 for the RCBS 270 SAA bullet.
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Dale53
Member
Gun4Fun;
Sorry I slighted you (I mean that sincerely).
We are on the same page, then if we refer to Brian Pearce. I should have clarified, that no " Powder Manufacturer" lists pressure data for the heavier bullets in the 625 (.45 ACP) at the 23,000 lbs level.
I have no desire no need to try to "magnumtize" my 625's (I have .44 Magnums and a couple of .454's) but a 255 gr bullet at 1000 fps or better would (and do) greatly extend the field use of these fine revolvers and having Hodgdon show the rational limits with their powders would be VERY helpful.
Dale53
Sorry I slighted you (I mean that sincerely).
We are on the same page, then if we refer to Brian Pearce. I should have clarified, that no " Powder Manufacturer" lists pressure data for the heavier bullets in the 625 (.45 ACP) at the 23,000 lbs level.
I have no desire no need to try to "magnumtize" my 625's (I have .44 Magnums and a couple of .454's) but a 255 gr bullet at 1000 fps or better would (and do) greatly extend the field use of these fine revolvers and having Hodgdon show the rational limits with their powders would be VERY helpful.
Dale53
Dale-
no need for any apology, as that was not my intent. I just didn't want anyone to think we were speaking for smith crazy. I have no idea how he feels about all of this other than what he posted before.
Yes, I believe that we are on the same page.
I don't need to magnumize my 25-2 either, but it is nice to know that if that is the only handgun a person owns (25/625 in .45 AC), or the only one that is capable of good accuracy, that they can use it for black bear, deer, and hogs.For those folks that are determined to push the pressure envelope with their 625 chambered in 45ACP, you would be much better off using the much stronger 45 Super case. I believe that Clark Custom even does cylinder conversions to 460 Rowland for the 25/625. I would give them a call if you want an expert opinion on how much pressure this N-frame platform can take.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
My point exactly!
Tdan,
You have underscored my point exactly. Look at the pressure data for the 460 Rowland conversions that Clark does for the "25" platform. They only make the chambers deeper, period.
All of the rest of the firearm is left the same, barrel, frame and action.
Looking at the pressure data for the Rowland. 39,000cup!
Just for comparison, a 44Mag with a 240gr bullet, has a maximum average of 40,000cup as a standard, according to SAAMI publication #205!
There is a little more "meat" in a 44Mag cylinder because of the difference in diameter of the cartridge, .4569" for the 44 and .4760" for the 45ACP, which translates to .0095" per radius.
Anyone can figure out that .009" isn't much. About 1000cup worth of strength!
Imagine a 230gr XTP at 1336fps! From a M625! WOW!
Tdan,
You have underscored my point exactly. Look at the pressure data for the 460 Rowland conversions that Clark does for the "25" platform. They only make the chambers deeper, period.
All of the rest of the firearm is left the same, barrel, frame and action.
Looking at the pressure data for the Rowland. 39,000cup!
Just for comparison, a 44Mag with a 240gr bullet, has a maximum average of 40,000cup as a standard, according to SAAMI publication #205!
There is a little more "meat" in a 44Mag cylinder because of the difference in diameter of the cartridge, .4569" for the 44 and .4760" for the 45ACP, which translates to .0095" per radius.
Anyone can figure out that .009" isn't much. About 1000cup worth of strength!
Imagine a 230gr XTP at 1336fps! From a M625! WOW!
Skip.........If I was to "hot rod" the 25/625 platform, I would concentrate my efforts on the 45ACP/AR guns. I believe you have a bit more steel in the cylinder in the area of the stop notches of the 45 ACP cylinder compared to the 45 Colt versions. I have shot bookoo what I consider mid power 44Mag loads(1150-1200fps of 240gr JHP or 250 Keith leads) in a 629-4 MG, and that gun is still tight and the timing is spot on. I'm betting those loads are only in the 30K pressure range. You hear the whining about "frame stretching" and such with heavy loads in 45 cal., but my common sense tells me that the cylinder walls are the limiting factor.........not the frame!
By the way.........I'd be happy with a 200 gr. 45 cal. bullet launched at 1200fps. That load bitch slaps any of the original 10mm loads that Jeff Cooper had in mind. I still have a bunch of those old Speer 200gr. "flying ashtray" hollow points. These bullets have a cannelure in them. Tailor made for a hot load in a Smith N-frame wheelgun!
By the way.........I'd be happy with a 200 gr. 45 cal. bullet launched at 1200fps. That load bitch slaps any of the original 10mm loads that Jeff Cooper had in mind. I still have a bunch of those old Speer 200gr. "flying ashtray" hollow points. These bullets have a cannelure in them. Tailor made for a hot load in a Smith N-frame wheelgun!
Not correct. The .45 ACP is listed as being .476" just in the front of the ejector groove, the .45 Colt is listed at .480". That just isn't enough to make a difference in cylinder wall thickness when you consider min/max chamber reamer specs.
tdan said:
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement!
gun for fun.........I'm measuring in the area of the cylinder where the notches are cut, and I find a difference of .005 between the cylinders of a 625-4 and a 625-5..........5 thousands is just that.........a bit more steel around the cartridge!
Interesting.....
I just went and measured my 25-7, 25-5 (.45 Colt's), and 25-2 (.45 ACP), directly over the stop notch. All three measure exactly .065". The difference you found is only a variation in manufacturing, and chambers can vary from one to the next for outside wall dimensions on the same gun sometimes, which is generally due to the polishing process. My point about them being equal in wall thickness is correct. You can also check out several articles by Brian Pearce in Handloader that mention the same thing. They have equal walls.
I just went and measured my 25-7, 25-5 (.45 Colt's), and 25-2 (.45 ACP), directly over the stop notch. All three measure exactly .065". The difference you found is only a variation in manufacturing, and chambers can vary from one to the next for outside wall dimensions on the same gun sometimes, which is generally due to the polishing process. My point about them being equal in wall thickness is correct. You can also check out several articles by Brian Pearce in Handloader that mention the same thing. They have equal walls.
