What do you think about a 180gr RNFP in a J-frame?
- Thread starter gwalchmai
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I think you may be trying to reinvent the wheel. The old 200 grain loads had a horrible reputation esp in short barrels.
Calaveras Slim
US Veteran
Really, not much
Wow, thanks, Slim. That was really helpful.
Landric
Member
I don't have any specific data using the chronograph for the load in a snubbie, but I load a 200 grain Lyman 358430 at 675-700 fps out of a 4" tube. I keep meaning to test it for velocity in one of my snubs, but so far I haven't done so.
The 200 grain "Super Police" load was supposed to be an improvement over the 158 grain RNL at standard pressures. I wasn't in LE when it was in use (it might have been before I was born actually), but rumor has it that the 200 grain RN wasn't much of an improvement over the 158 grain RN. That makes some sense, I can see the 200 grain bullet penetrating more at a given velocity, but not really causing any more damage unless the bullet tumbled. The 158 grain RN didn't have a problem penetrating soft targets, so the increased penetration of soft targets probably didn't help much.
However, I suspect the "Super Police" would have done much better with a 200 grain SWC profile bullet. Its too bad it wasn't loaded that way, but it could be interesting now. Some folks don't trust hollowpoints to expand from snubbies, others either don't want to use them or can't use them for one reason or another. I think for those people, a heavy SWC might not be a bad choice.
There is a guy on this forum, among others, who has done some testing with 200 grain RN and SWC bullets out of snubs and had overall much better performance with the SWC profile.
I've pushed a 200 grain 358430 to 900 fps out of a 4" gun without any problem, but I'm not sure I would want to shoot that particular load in a J-frame. The major problem with any heavy bullet in a snubbie is getting enough velocity, if that can be overcome, I think its a good option.
The 200 grain "Super Police" load was supposed to be an improvement over the 158 grain RNL at standard pressures. I wasn't in LE when it was in use (it might have been before I was born actually), but rumor has it that the 200 grain RN wasn't much of an improvement over the 158 grain RN. That makes some sense, I can see the 200 grain bullet penetrating more at a given velocity, but not really causing any more damage unless the bullet tumbled. The 158 grain RN didn't have a problem penetrating soft targets, so the increased penetration of soft targets probably didn't help much.
However, I suspect the "Super Police" would have done much better with a 200 grain SWC profile bullet. Its too bad it wasn't loaded that way, but it could be interesting now. Some folks don't trust hollowpoints to expand from snubbies, others either don't want to use them or can't use them for one reason or another. I think for those people, a heavy SWC might not be a bad choice.
There is a guy on this forum, among others, who has done some testing with 200 grain RN and SWC bullets out of snubs and had overall much better performance with the SWC profile.
I've pushed a 200 grain 358430 to 900 fps out of a 4" gun without any problem, but I'm not sure I would want to shoot that particular load in a J-frame. The major problem with any heavy bullet in a snubbie is getting enough velocity, if that can be overcome, I think its a good option.
Erich
Member
After experimentation, I load 195-grainers (with old data and 2400) for use in snubs. They do over 830 fps from the 1 7/8" barrels. Good if you need penetration from a snub for some reason - I figured this would be a good hiking load in the (I can't figure out how it would occur) event that I had to limit myself to a .38 snub while hiking up Bear Canyon.
flop-shank
US Veteran
Assuming that you're looking for a self defense cartridge, the Buffalo Bore std. pressure 158 gr. semi-wadcuter gas checked hollow point would be first on my list to try. 148 gr. wadcutters would work reasonably well too. Honestly, I think +Ps wouldn't hurt your model 60 and definately not when used in moderation.
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
I guess my first question would be, "Why?" If the load is for social purposes, I think the FBI load or the Speer Short Barrel loads are both much better. A little +P is not going to hurt a 60, no-dash or later. I'd never recommend it, nor shoot it, but I knew a fellow who bored out a no-dash 60 to .357 mag. Last I heard, he still had all his fingers and his eyes, somewhat surprisingly to me. While that's a bad idea, it should be instructive as to the strength of the little guns. If you load a 180 up to levels like Erich loads his 195s, you are almost certainly in +P pressure territory. Besides that, bullets that heavy are going to hit WAY above your POA in most fixed-sight guns.
armsmaster270
US Veteran
When my brother was a deputy he had a 60 opened up to 357mag in case he had to use his 60 backup with his duty model 19 ammo in a do or die situation. He had fired a few rounds with it. Not my idea of safe but it worked. +P's are lower than mags and would probably be ok in limited use
SLT223
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Why would it shoot higher? I would have thought lighter bullets have a flatter trajectory, so if you used a heavies in a fixed sight gun sighted for lighter bullets, the heavies would impact lower given the same line of sight.
Chubbs103
US Veteran
"Why would it shoot higher? I would have thought lighter bullets have a flatter trajectory, so if you used a heavies in a fixed sight gun sighted for lighter bullets, the heavies would impact lower given the same line of sight."
Assuming a slower velocity, the heavier bullets would take longer to exit the barrel. The effects of the muzzle rising tend to cause slower bullets to have higher point of impact than a faster one.
Assuming a slower velocity, the heavier bullets would take longer to exit the barrel. The effects of the muzzle rising tend to cause slower bullets to have higher point of impact than a faster one.
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
What Chubbs said. Recoil begins well before the bullet exits the muzzle, and slower or heavier bullets hit higher at typical handgun ranges. (At longer ranges, bullet drop due to Mr. Gravity reverses the trend.) This effect is much more evident in longer barrels, but even in a snubby, with the sights factory regulated for 158s (at least theoretically) it will be noticeable with 180s. I have a Colt Cobra that shoots 158s a foot high at 10 yards. With Cor-Bon 110gr. loads, it's barely above POA at the same range.
BreakerDan
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BUFF
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
My 1980-ish Model 60 has perhaps 2,000 Plus-P factory loads (158 gr LSWC-HP, mostly) and handloads through it. It didn't seem to bother it any. They (J frame .38 Specials) are stronger than most suspect. I have even more Plus-P mileage on the 1990-ish Model 642 that I replaced the M-60 with (lighter carry weight, not wear).
My concerns with 180 grain bullets would be more one of recoil and point-of-impact. Sure, you can help conquer recoil a snub with bigger grips but that kinda defeats the purpose of having the smaller gun in the first place.
You should shoot 50 rounds and see what you think.
My concerns with 180 grain bullets would be more one of recoil and point-of-impact. Sure, you can help conquer recoil a snub with bigger grips but that kinda defeats the purpose of having the smaller gun in the first place.
You should shoot 50 rounds and see what you think.
SLT223
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That makes sense. Thank you.
I have a 60 no-dash Ser.# R243XXX with a pinned barrel that I bought new in Jan. '82. The R ser# began in '69 and the pinned barrel ended in '82. I carried this 60 as a BUG from '82 to '99. The only ammo ever fired in it until after I retired in '99 was Remington 158 gr+p and 125 gr+p because that was the only ammo we were allowed to carry during those years. After I retired I began reloading and loaded 158 and 125 gr+p's for this gun.
You are ultimately responsible for your safety as are we all. Do as you wish with this info.
kwikrnu
Member
You can try Blue Bunny ammo. It looks like they are selling 148, 158, and 200 grain .38 special.
interesting. From BB's website - "The third loading is an old cartridge called "Super Police." This is a 200 gr flat point round nose. Expansion is not an issue--the round is meant to get through things like a freight train." That seems at odds with Landric's observation: "The 200 grain "Super Police" load was supposed to be an improvement over the 158 grain RNL at standard pressures. I wasn't in LE when it was in use (it might have been before I was born actually), but rumor has it that the 200 grain RN wasn't much of an improvement over the 158 grain RN."
BTW, I was wrong about the bullets I had stashed. They're 180gr truncated cones, not RNFP.
Landric
Member
I think the problem with the "Super Police" was that it was loaded to such a low velocity. That load was doing somewhere in the neighborhood of 650 fps from a 4" gun. If Buffalo Bore is loading a 200 grain .38 Special, I suspect they are pushing it much faster. I've loaded it to 900 fps out of a 4" gun using .38 Special data from 1970's era manuals. More performance is possible, but the factory loads didn't have it.
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