200 gr "Super Police"

[Checkman]

BreakerDan

"A 200 gr loading of the 38 Special was introduced as best I can tell sometime in the late 30s. It is very similar to a 41 Colt."

For what it's worth I have a printing of an article that Phil Sharpe wrote about the "new" Smith & Wesson Heavy Duty for the NRA's American Rifleman magazine. It appeared in the November 1931 issue. It's interesting to note that Sharpe called the Heavy Duty the S&W Super Police. Among the many loads he fired was the 200 grain Super Police 38 Special. Just some trivia for you.

 

[bmcgilvray]

"I would think the Remington load would tumble when it hit..."

In my single example with the whitetail deer it did, being found sideways in a smashed off side rib with a large "smear" of lead about the side of a dime protruding off of the bullet. I don't have the bullet handy but seems that it still weighed around 190 grains. It had badly damaged the aorta on its way through.

I found the Remington 200 grain component bullets extremely soft, similar to pure lead. They leaded bores like fiends. The exposed portion of the bullet in the Remington 200 grain factory load looks exactly like the component bullet.

I once had boxes and boxes of these bullets, bought on a close-out. I'd thought they'd been long ago shot up in .38 Special guns and later a .38/200 Webley but found a box when I moved last year.

Here's the 200 grain bullet compared to a 158 grain SWC.

 

[BreakerDan]

I found an interesting article written by some ballistic's guys
from back when Super vel was new and they tested it with
the main 38s of the day as well as 200 gr RNL here are the results:


The Tests
The Winchester salesman left the captain some samples of the then-new .38 Special ammo, a 158-grain lead semiwadcutter (SWC) at standard velocity. The most basic need of the test was to compare the wound cavity volume of the proposed SWC round to that of LRN ammo. We had plenty of gelatin, time set aside for testing, and a keen desire to see what this new test could reveal. After all, the ammo industry was just beginning to react to the Super Vel hollowpoints by Lee Juuras. We bought-- and scrounged--enough to have 15 ammo types representing various bullets and velocity levels. It's a good thing we did; the final recommendation was not the load the salesman proposed to the captain. A selection of the tested .38 Special loads is listed in the accompanying chart ranked by relative wound cavity volume.



We selected an S&W Model 15 revolver with a 4-inch barrel as the test platform and started with several brands of standard-velocity 158-grain LRN ammo. All produced similar wounding abilities of roughly 75 ft-lbs transferred to the blocks. The testing was entirely comparative, so the consistent performance level of LRN ammo became the baseline to which other ammo types would be judged. According to the AFIP criteria, ammo transferring 150 ft-lbs produced a temporary cavity twice that of the .38 LRN producing 75 ft-lbs.



Next we tested the Winchester load the salesman had left plus other SWC loads at both standard and high velocities. At standard velocity, the SWC posted a small but statistically insignificant advantage over the LRN loads. At what today would be .38 Special +P velocities--the +P indicator was not standardized until 1974--the SWC showed a modest advantage, posting transfers of around 95 to 135 ft-lbs depending on make and velocity. For giggles, we shot some 148-grain hollow-base wadcutter ammo; it consistently hovered at 145 ft-lbs transfer.



We couldn't resist shooting one of the old police favorites, the 200-grain lead RN. One brand transferred less than 60 ft-lbs. Another managed to transfer 85 ft-lbs because its odd nose profile caused it to tumble violently almost as soon as it entered the gelatin.

Commercial jacket hollowpoint and softpoint bullets had been around only a few years when we agreed to do the tests, and we made sure they were well represented. From prior water expansion tests, we knew that some early hollowpoints were better dubbed "selling points," defying expansion in any medium less dense than brick. Others were pretty impressive; the original Super Vel 110-grain JHP trotted through the screens at 1,090 fps, expanded nicely, and transferred 260 ft-lbs. That's about 3.5 times the wounding ability of the baseline LRN load.



There were a few surprises. A Norma 110-grain JHP left the revolver barrel at over 1,330 fps and transferred 390 ft-lbs. We later discovered this was decent performance for .357 Magnum HP bullets! The tests also showed that jacketed softpoints--popular back then as being "noncontroversial"--did not expand. Unless driven at velocities no factory would dare to sell in a .38 Special cartridge today, softpoints were mostly middle-of-the-pack performers.


here is the link Google Image Result for http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/ST_crimelabtests_200807-A1.jpg

 

[fredj338]

I agree on the pepper spray first, 357mag as abackup. I like the 145grWSTHP from a 3". Expands well & penetrates deep but still easily controlled in a smaller rev like the sp101.

 

[LouisianaMan]

Checkman,
Could you scan a copy of that 1931 article & email it to me? From my previous reading on-line, I think what Sharpe may have been referring to was a .38 S&W round with a 200g bullet, especially since your citation also separately refers to a 200g load in .38 SPL.

I'm sure most or all contributing to this thread know that the British developed their .380/200 round in the '20s, and that may have been the inspiration for S&W to introduce it here as an improved police round, both in the .38 S&W and in the .38 S&W SPL.

Interestingly, there seem to have been either two developmental approaches to 200g loadings, or at least two interpretations of how those loads worked, whether in .38 S&W or .38 S&W Special:

(1) The British, I believe, went with a flat point, low velocity to keep the bullet from exiting & thereby expending all energy in the body. They specifically liked the tendency of the heavy FN to plow straight in, not deviate, and smash bones that it hit.

(2) Here in America, there seems to be (or have been) a lot of discussion about keeping the velocity intentionally low and the nose rounded (or even almost conical) in a .38 SPL, thereby creating a marginally stable bullet that tumbles when it hits.

My own backyard "testing" with some W-W factory rounds a few months ago was as follows:
Temp 83 degrees; rounds loaded and fired w/o effort to seat powder against either bullet or primer.

1. Colt Detective Special, 2" bbl.
2. Velocity: Lo: 595.2 ; Hi 620.7; Avg 604.5; ES 25.52; SD 9.38.
3. POI at 15 yards: +4.5" ; L 1.25"

I also fired a single round through my Ruger 4" bbl. at 681.4fps; POI was + 2 1/8". (This makes me think that some published claims of 703fps factory ammo were correct, when measured from a 6" bbl.)

Here's what the W-W load did from the Detective Special against water-filled milk jugs at 10 feet:

1. Penetrated 5 jugs through-and-through. Two pop-off caps launched, all screw-ons remained intact, #2 jug split along the handle seam.
2. Missed #6 jug, left classic keyholing dent 1/16 to 1/8 inch deep in backstop behind #6 (a piece of 2X12), caromed off and was not found.
3. Bullet tracked straight through jugs 1 and 2, and entering #3; deviated slightly right in exiting #3 and entering #4; deviated significantly thru #4; entered #5 near right edge and exited in right rear corner, thus missing #6. Total deviation about 4-5 inches rightward.

ANALYSIS:
1. Penetration and deviation very similar to handloaded 200g LRN cast from wheelweights, chrono'ed at 663 fps.
2. Note that my handloaded 200g LSWC-K at 718fps from 2" bbl. penetrated all 6 jugs arrow-straight, then penetrated 2x12 backstop to the shoulder, knocking down backstop & falling out.

In other words, when I load the round to velocities similar to those achieved (or claimed for) the 770fps "Highway Patrol" load, AND substitute a hardcast LSWC-K 200g bullet, I get stability & penetration. With LRN bullets, I certainly got less stability, but I don't have the technology to know whether they swerved or tumbled going through the jugs.

I need to test the penetration characteristics of LRN bullets in the 750fps range to compare fully to the LSWC-K. I also hope to cast some softer slugs to see if this variable seems to create noticeable differences.

Since I'm equipping my wife & daughters with .38S&W revolvers--each gets a 2" S&W Mod 32-1 and a 4" Mod 33/33-1--I will test out 200g loads in that caliber as well.

Although my primary HD sidearm is a .45LC Mod 625-7, I have several .38SPLs that are loaded with the LSWC-K bullet at 750fps (4") and 718fps (2"). I feel confident they'll punch thru sofas & leather chairs, into & possibly through a BG from any angle. Also, my max indoor shot is 60 feet. If it were shorter, and if our furniture composition layout were different, I might very well stick with the FBI Load 158g LSWCHP +P.

 

[BreakerDan]

Thats interesting Louisiana Man. Thanks.

I shot a few of these through my new to me 2nd issue Detective Special yesterday. Nice, soft shooting round. Can't help but think that these are
neat rounds.

 

[tpd223]

I have fired several boxes of the old Super Police load, IMHO it is neither super nor a good police load.

This bullet won't go through barriers that other common .38 rounds will easily penetrate. A long time ago during a gunfight our former Chief bounced two of these bullets off of a bad guy's head and face without the guy even flinching,

No thanks, I'll pass.

I would be very interested in a +P wadcutter, say 148-158gr, and maybe plated like a Gold Dot bullet.

 

[will5a1]

I would be very interested in a +P wadcutter, say 148-158gr, and maybe plated like a Gold Dot bullet.[/QUOTE]

tpd223 - You may want to consider Blue Bunny's Golden Shot, an inverted plated 148gr HBWC, out of my 2" Model 64 velocity was averaging 917, going to a 3" 64 the average velocity jumped to 958, and out of a 4" barrel the average went to 997, making for a nice balanced SD load in the home, at least to my thinking.

 

[sjmjax]

Some cops I hear called the load "nerf bullets."

Wasn't it someone in the Clinton administration that wanted us to use 'safer' bullets. Maybe this is what they had in mind.

 

[flop-shank]

I would be very interested in a +P wadcutter, say 148-158gr, and maybe plated like a Gold Dot bullet.

Probably good for 26" in gelatin and a great head cracker. That would be a neat niche load.

 

[stiab]

I would be very interested in a +P wadcutter, say 148-158gr, and maybe plated like a Gold Dot bullet.

Sounds like what you are looking for is the original Hydra-Shoks...

 

[tpd223]

"Probably good for 26" in gelatin and a great head cracker. That would be a neat niche load"

Exactly.

Nothing fancy, just a plain old wadcutter, with a flat or slightly cupped nose with a sharp edge, maybe even a solid copper bullet so that it stays sharp throughout the penetration.

This would be superb BUG ammo.

In my experience, and other folks like Jim Cirillo, the inverted wadcutters can tumble after a bit and are rather inaccurate.

 

[flop-shank]

wadcutters rock!

tpd, I knew exactly what you were looking for and talking about. I also saw that one of your guns is stoked with BB 150 gr. wadcutters. As far as I know that's the closest equivalent to your ideal load available today so you're on the right track. I run a wadcutter handload in my wife's gun. As you know, great penetration can be achieved with recoil anyone can handle (my beautiful asian wife is 4' 7"/90 lbs.).

 

[Powder Burns]

Learned a lot

Wow, I learned more about the 200 gr Super Police on this thread than anywhere else, ever.
This load and any historic police loads/guns fascinate me. This load does in particular, as I remember seeing it in a Remington Catalog many years ago but never for sale on a shelf.
I ended up finding some .357", 200 gr LRN online, and duplicated what I thought was fairly close to the factory ballstics. Although I can't remember the loading now...but chronographed about 550-575 fps in my 2" bbl. Charter Arms Off Duty.
The round nose is pretty blunt on these, almost semi-spherical, and I have done no tests to see if they tend to tumble.
Fun stuff. Thanks you all.

 

[bmcgilvray]

I have a related question. If the 200 gr. Super Police load was an attempt to provide .41 Colt ballistics from the .38 Special (both actually being chambered in the same Colt frame), has anyone checked the ACTUAL velocities produced by the .41 Colt?

I looked for a Colt Army Special or Official Police in .41 Colt for a long time (not a collectible but a good shooter) but never found one I didn't think was way too dear for my purposes. All I wanted was to learn the .41 Colt cartridge. I did get a 5" OP and was told that I could just load a 200 gr. to about 800-850 fps to duplicate the .41 Colt (aside from the small diameter difference).

Nearly a year and 3 months later I can answer you, Hobie.

Played with factory .41 Long Colt off and on during the past year or so from two different Colt revolvers, a New Navy with 4 1/2-inch barrel from 1901 and a more recently acquired Army Special with 4-inch barrel from 1925.


Here are the chronograph test results with the Army Special.

Remington 195 Grain Lead Round nose

662 fps: Muzzle Velocity
195 ft./lbs: Muzzle Energy
26 fps: Extreme Spread
9 fps: Standard Deviation


Winchester Western "White Box" 200 Grain Lubaloy Round Nose

671 fps: Muzzle Velocity
200 ft./lbs.: Muzzle Energy
50 fps: Extreme Spread
22 fps: Standard Deviation



Western "Yellow Box" 200 Grain Lubaloy Round Nose

679 fps: Muzzle Velocity
204 ft./lbs.: Muzzle Energy
27 fps: Extreme Spread
9 fps: Standard Deviation




Here's the data obtained last summer when firing this same ammunition from the .41 Colt New Navy.

Remington 195 Grain Lead Round Nose

692 fps: muzzle velocity
207 ft./lbs.: muzzle energy
48 fps: extreme spread
18 fps: standard deviation


Winchester Western "white box" 200 Grain Lubaloy Round Nose

709 fps: muzzle velocity
223 ft./lbs.: muzzle energy
107 fps: extreme spread
46 fps: standard deviation


Western "Yellow Box" 200 Grain Lubaloy Round Nose

720 fps: muzzle velocity:
230 ft./lbs.: muzzle energy
16 fps: extreme spread
6 fps: standard deviation

Yep, the .41 Long Colt just plods along, at least in factory guise. I'm intending to address this using new Starline cases and trying some different styles of component bullets.

 

[Skysoldier]

Hey if any of you fellows happen to have an extra box of the 200gr super police ammo laying and would like to sell it give me a holler I like to use them for backround when taking pictures

Thanks Sky

 

[dkees]

Indeed we are, myself and JohnWall.
We clocked the 200gr load at 667fps out of a 4" barrel. We have some available.

Is your .38 Super Police 200 gr available on line through the Eastside Gun Shop?

Any other outlets for it?

thank you

 

[LouisianaMan]

Thanks to Checkman for mailing me a copy of the 1931 Phil Sharpe article on the then-new S&W .38/44 Outdoorsman revolver. It has some neat info about the 200g .38 SPL Super Police round.

More to follow soon (he said mysteriously. . . .)

 

[TripleLock]

A deteriorating, but full, box of 38 Special Super Police ammo manufactured by Western Cartridge Co. in the late 1930s or early 1940s.

Jim

 

[LouisianaMan]

TripleLock,

The box does show a bit of wear, but the ammo looks pristine! Did you get it about a year ago on a GB auction? If so, I was the loser in the bidding war with you!

Do you intend to shoot any & chronograph them, or is this for display/collection only? In any case, enjoy!

I know some of the Remington and Western 200g loads were about 600 fps, but some Super Police loads were advertised at 703 (I think) and 730 fps. I've seen someone refer to a 770 fps load, but haven't ever seen original sources that claim something that high. Who knows, that may have been chrono'ed from a 8 3/8" barrel, whereas the other was from a 6" barrel (just guessing).

I've read, thought, fired & written a fair amount about these 200g loads, and still have unanswered questions:

1) I'm familiar with what people say/speculate about the British rationale for their .38-200 Mk. I service ammo, which rated 600-650 from a .38 S&W case (aka .380 Rimmed). But. . .what did they actually conclude was the basis for its perceived effectiveness? Dwell time? Energy dump theory? Tendency to tumble after entering an unarmored target?

2) Given the specualtion above, was it indeed an improvement to jack up the velocity to 700, 730, 770 or whatever? Or, conversely, did increased velocity stabilize the bullet more effectively, and thereby prevent the tumbling that (may have) caused the effectiveness of the round in the first place?

3) I've handloaded blunt round-nosed bullets, long-ogive flat points, and SWC bullets at various points on this velocity spectrum, and seen that anything with a flat tip drills straight through water, whereas round noses curve (or perhaps tumble). Therefore, it seems to me that getting the highest practical velocities from a LSWC bullet ensures the straightest, deepest penetration and wound channel that is more effective than a stable LRN inflicts.

4) BUT. . .if the real effectiveness of this round was/is its tendency to tumble--and tumbling is only likely at low velocity and with a round-nose bullet--then perhaps the flat-nose and higher vels defeat the purpose of the original concept. Even a destabilized & tumbling 200g slug will tend to give thru-and-thru results on an unarmored human target, while inflicting a larger diameter wound channel than a stabilized bullet.

5) Definitely, part of the British thinking was to reduce recoil (re. the .455 Webley) so that the average soldier could achieve more hits, more quickly, and with less training. That imperative would tend to make the designers want to reduce velocity, and thereby recoil. That leaves open the possibility that a better-trained shooter would be better served by a higher-velocity round--but again, perhaps that eliminates the tumbling tendency & in sum reduces the effectiveness of the shot.

Guess I won't know the answer until I get my hands on 1920's British Army testing results, and/or pay Brassfetcher to test several load permutations and measure the volume of the respective wound channels.