flop-shank
US Veteran
......and that, folks is exactly why I don't know much about blending powders. 
I've no desire to flirt with stuff like that.
I've no desire to flirt with stuff like that.
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Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests
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bmcgilvray
SWCA Member
The recoil is healthy. I didn't choose to use a steel framed Chief's Special for 2-inch testing and also kept the Buffalo Bore out of the Model 642. I intend to get a couple more boxes and will try them in the Model 642.
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BUFFALO BORE AMMO
I ran a similar chronograph test on a bunch of .38 special "carry" ammo about 6 months ago (posted on this forum). Although my personal testing was not as extensive as this one, I did come up with similar results. I used a 2" Chief Special model 60 (my carry gun) for the testing and I was shooting all afternoon. The recoil is stiff from the BB ammo, but it is not at all difficult to manage. In fact, it actually proved to be one of the more accurate loadings I tested. My carry gun has the original round butt factory wood grips on it with a Tyler "T" grip installed, and I had no problem controlling it either with one or two hand shooting. How Tim Sundles gets those velocities out of a two inch tube without going over the maximum pressure is beyond me. I have tested and carry a bunch of his products. He loads a .357 Magnum with a 158 grain sjhp bullet that hits 1400 fps out out of my 3" model 65. NOW THAT'S IMPRESSIVE! Shame on the "Big Three" for not coming up with BB "type" ammo years ago. Thankfully, Buffalo Bore did!!
Regards,
chief38
I ran a similar chronograph test on a bunch of .38 special "carry" ammo about 6 months ago (posted on this forum). Although my personal testing was not as extensive as this one, I did come up with similar results. I used a 2" Chief Special model 60 (my carry gun) for the testing and I was shooting all afternoon. The recoil is stiff from the BB ammo, but it is not at all difficult to manage. In fact, it actually proved to be one of the more accurate loadings I tested. My carry gun has the original round butt factory wood grips on it with a Tyler "T" grip installed, and I had no problem controlling it either with one or two hand shooting. How Tim Sundles gets those velocities out of a two inch tube without going over the maximum pressure is beyond me. I have tested and carry a bunch of his products. He loads a .357 Magnum with a 158 grain sjhp bullet that hits 1400 fps out out of my 3" model 65. NOW THAT'S IMPRESSIVE! Shame on the "Big Three" for not coming up with BB "type" ammo years ago. Thankfully, Buffalo Bore did!!
Regards,
chief38
flop-shank
US Veteran
My guess is that he's mixing powders with different burn rates and/or he's running closer to max pressure. Whatever the case, the cat has his crap together.
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I'LL SECOND THAT!
dick44
Member
Bmcgilvray my box of win white box 158+p is from 1975-1977 era
dick44
dick44
I just (yesterday) ordered 100 rounds of the BB 158 gr. +p. I have agonized over carrying a Chiefs Special because of the anemic-ness of most .38 special loads from the j-frame. I have tried carrying larger guns, but the Model 60/36 just works for me. I intend to shoot five, maybe 10 rounds each from my two main carry pieces just to verify that they print where I need them to at 5 yards. 1000-plus fps and near 400 ft.lbs sounds a lot better than the numbers from the old El Dorado Starfire 125 gr +p loads I'm carrying now.
I also plan to sight a couple of four inch K-frame "truck guns" at 50 feet. Low end .357 performance from K-frames is a pretty good proposition, seems like to me. I have ideas of taking one of the Ks to the deer stand and testing the load on a medium size doe, given the opportunity.
This is by terry_p on another site...for all you handloaders:
Trying to duplicate the Buffalo Bore 38 Spl +P 158 gr LSWCHP-GC
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I used a Rim Rock bullet that is very similar if not the same bullet that Buffalo Bore uses. I chose Power Pistol powder and had previously worked up from what was listed as min to max in the Speer Manual so I chose the +P max load of 6.0 gr which had previously had not caused me any pressure issues and was consistent.
I brought my chrony to the range, set up and proceeded to fire 5 Buffalo Bores, and 5 of my loads from my SP101 and recorded each reading after firing 5. I then proceeded to fire 5 each from my LCR and record each. The results from the BB were impressive averaging 1037 FPS in the SP and averaging 1017 in the LCR. I didn't see unburns and the loads didn't show any excess pressure signs in either revolver. My loads chronied an average of 936 FPS in the SP and 894 FPS in the LCR and did not show signs of excess pressure in either revolver but were not quite as snappy as the BB's. The only problem I had with my reloads was for some reason my 38 Spl sizer die wasn't putting a very strong roll crimp on the Rim Rocks and was adjusted as aggressive as I could get it. I quickly checked a random loose RR bullet when I got home for size and it was right on at .357 so the next time I'll use my 357 mag dies and see if I can get a little more consistent and agressive roll crimp as they are newer dies.
The load is what it is because I am at the top and other powders listed in Speer are listed as generating slower bullet speed. I'm still down from 100 fps to 124 FPS from the factory so they obviously are using a different powder but the two loads seemed to shoot to the same point or about an inch below point of aim at 7 yards.
It was an interesting exercise and although I didn't match speed the loads will be good for practice and not a bad alternative to the $2.00 per cartridge for the Buffalo Bore's.
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Trying to duplicate the Buffalo Bore 38 Spl +P 158 gr LSWCHP-GC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used a Rim Rock bullet that is very similar if not the same bullet that Buffalo Bore uses. I chose Power Pistol powder and had previously worked up from what was listed as min to max in the Speer Manual so I chose the +P max load of 6.0 gr which had previously had not caused me any pressure issues and was consistent.
I brought my chrony to the range, set up and proceeded to fire 5 Buffalo Bores, and 5 of my loads from my SP101 and recorded each reading after firing 5. I then proceeded to fire 5 each from my LCR and record each. The results from the BB were impressive averaging 1037 FPS in the SP and averaging 1017 in the LCR. I didn't see unburns and the loads didn't show any excess pressure signs in either revolver. My loads chronied an average of 936 FPS in the SP and 894 FPS in the LCR and did not show signs of excess pressure in either revolver but were not quite as snappy as the BB's. The only problem I had with my reloads was for some reason my 38 Spl sizer die wasn't putting a very strong roll crimp on the Rim Rocks and was adjusted as aggressive as I could get it. I quickly checked a random loose RR bullet when I got home for size and it was right on at .357 so the next time I'll use my 357 mag dies and see if I can get a little more consistent and agressive roll crimp as they are newer dies.
The load is what it is because I am at the top and other powders listed in Speer are listed as generating slower bullet speed. I'm still down from 100 fps to 124 FPS from the factory so they obviously are using a different powder but the two loads seemed to shoot to the same point or about an inch below point of aim at 7 yards.
It was an interesting exercise and although I didn't match speed the loads will be good for practice and not a bad alternative to the $2.00 per cartridge for the Buffalo Bore's.
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Well, apparently Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore Ammo has either figured it out himself or hired a ammunition/reloading genius. I am sure his "recipe" is in a safe somewhere just like the Coca-Cola formula is. Not only has he hit the nail on the head with the 38 specials and 357's, but all his stuff is just dynamic!
When I go into the woods hiking (NOT hunting) my S&W model 65 is always with me and it is stoked with Buffalo Bore 180 grain .357 hard cast bullets. They run over 1300 fps. out of the 3" tube, and at 180 grains should do the job in an emergency. If I was hunting this gun/ammo combo would not be my first choice; that would be a .44 Mag. or better, but just to tote along on a hike I feel it will do the trick in an emergency.
When I go into the woods hiking (NOT hunting) my S&W model 65 is always with me and it is stoked with Buffalo Bore 180 grain .357 hard cast bullets. They run over 1300 fps. out of the 3" tube, and at 180 grains should do the job in an emergency. If I was hunting this gun/ammo combo would not be my first choice; that would be a .44 Mag. or better, but just to tote along on a hike I feel it will do the trick in an emergency.
Texas Star
US Veteran
I've been told by ammo co. engineers that they sometimes use lots of powder that are not offered in what they called "cannister grade".
That may explain why BB is able to achieve those high velocities. They may be using powders not available to reloaders. And they may well be at the edge of the SAAMI pressure envelope. Probably only BB knows for sure.
T-Star
That may explain why BB is able to achieve those high velocities. They may be using powders not available to reloaders. And they may well be at the edge of the SAAMI pressure envelope. Probably only BB knows for sure.
T-Star
flop-shank
US Veteran
redlevel, I like your thinking and I remember your cool mean looking old 36.
flop-shank
US Veteran
Terry_p is on the right track and probably came up with as good of a load as any of us mere mortals can, except perhaps using an old fire breathing manual such as, IIRC, Speer #8. I'm pretty certain Buffalo Bore is using powders not commercially available and more importantly, blending powders with two different burn rates.
Power Pistol is also a good choice when approaching peak pressures because it meters so consistently.
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canister powders
I read, years ago, when Super Vel belonged to Lee Jurras, their .38spl was loaded with a cannister grade of Unique not available to the public. This was in a gun magazine, Guns and Ammo I think.
I read, years ago, when Super Vel belonged to Lee Jurras, their .38spl was loaded with a cannister grade of Unique not available to the public. This was in a gun magazine, Guns and Ammo I think.
David Sinko
Member
Has anybody ever pulled apart a Buffalo Bore cartridge and looked at the powder? Or weighed it?
I'm starting to really like my 2" Model 64 but the K Frame does not handle the heavy loads nearly as well as the J Frames. I'm plagued with sticky extraction when I use heavier charges of SR4756, and I'm still well shy of 8.0 grs. I had been wondering how the Buffalo Bore extracts from the K Frame .38 Specials, so now I know. My next project will be Power Pistol in the 64. I have never used this powder in .38 Special.
Speaking of Power Pistol, I have gotten 1080 FPS in my 2" 9mm Model 940 with 147 gr. Gold Dots. And I get very easy extraction. That's not too shabby for a case which has far less capacity than the .38 Special. I'm willing to bet that if I had a good cast bullet I could hit 1100 FPS. In spite of this, it's amazing how many people scorn the 147 gr. 9mm at face value yet stand in awe of the .38 Special and similar ballistics.
Dave Sinko
I'm starting to really like my 2" Model 64 but the K Frame does not handle the heavy loads nearly as well as the J Frames. I'm plagued with sticky extraction when I use heavier charges of SR4756, and I'm still well shy of 8.0 grs. I had been wondering how the Buffalo Bore extracts from the K Frame .38 Specials, so now I know. My next project will be Power Pistol in the 64. I have never used this powder in .38 Special.
Speaking of Power Pistol, I have gotten 1080 FPS in my 2" 9mm Model 940 with 147 gr. Gold Dots. And I get very easy extraction. That's not too shabby for a case which has far less capacity than the .38 Special. I'm willing to bet that if I had a good cast bullet I could hit 1100 FPS. In spite of this, it's amazing how many people scorn the 147 gr. 9mm at face value yet stand in awe of the .38 Special and similar ballistics.
Dave Sinko
true fire
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nice read and nice data information.
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I like the results you got with the 200 gr lead and 9.5 gr 2400. 835 fps is nothing to sneeze at out of a 2" barrel. I have a Lyman 358430 195 gr mould that I would like to have hollow pointed and use for carry ammo in my snubby. That load of 2400 prints a bit off todays charts, did it show any pressure signs?
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bmcgilvray
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Sorry to be so slow to see your question, Shakey Jakey.
The 200 grain round nose bullets with the 2400 didn't show any "traditional" pressure signs. Not certain that means anything though. It's possible that the .38 Special won't really show evidence of high pressure in the form of sticky cases and funky primers until one has taken it into the realms of the .357 Magnum.
The 200 grain round nose bullets with the 2400 didn't show any "traditional" pressure signs. Not certain that means anything though. It's possible that the .38 Special won't really show evidence of high pressure in the form of sticky cases and funky primers until one has taken it into the realms of the .357 Magnum.
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