610 with a wierd problem

[maxxpower]

I bought a new 610 4" last summer. I put a Simmons Red Dot on it and I loved it. I was shooting at 50 yards and doing pretty well- 3" groups when I was really feeling good.

A few months ago I was shooting it at 25 yards and it was shooting all over the place. 1st shot 4" from center at 11 0'clock. The next 5" from center at 5 o'clock. The next 3" from center at 1 o'clock. You get the idea. Oh yeah, this was off of a rest.

I was using reloads so I went back with WWB. Not that it's great ammo but it's been consistent for me in the past. Same problems at 25 yards. I had another forum member who was at the range shoot it. Same problem for him. He tried off of a rest too. Same problem.

For grins I brought it with me the next time and shot it at 15 yards. 1-1/2" groups without trying very hard. I moved to the 25 yard range... she's flying all over the place.

I'd understand if I was off consistently in one direction but this wildness is baffling.

I'll be calling S&W tomorrow and I know I'll be getting the mailing label treatment but I was curious if anyone has a clue what in the world makes a gun accurate at 15 yards and wild at 25?

 

[WILL TERRY]

You can pretty well bet the ranch the scope/dot sight has gone kerflooeey from that description.

 

[maxxpower]

You can pretty well bet the ranch the scope/dot sight has gone kerflooeey from that description.

I wsa thinking that but how does it account for relatively tight groups at 15 yards and then 10" groups at 25? That math doesn't work.

 

[s&wchad]

It could be;

A defective sight
Loose sight attachment
Wrong bullet type
Heavily leaded/fouled bore
Crown damage

 

[m657]

Had much the same happen to me. Twice. In competition.

Silly me....Loose rear sight body mounting screw. I have put on the HiViz front/rear set. It will find a place it likes & stay there for a while. Then you will get huge moves in POI again.

Tighten the sight for sure. Then try your targets.

 

[SmithNut]

Just for grins.....

Have you made sure all the screws on the red dot sight mount are tight? Loose screws can give you wierd results. Also, results at closer distances are less "exagerated" than the longer distances, so it's hard to determine what is going on from the spread alone.

 

[maxxpower]

I'll check all of the screws tonight.

This gun was once sent back to S&W for service because it was throwing shrapnel back at my left cheek. A few times it drew blood. I'll have to check the note that came back with it but I believe they "cut the forcing cone to spec" or something like that.

 

[handgunner356]

My money would be on the scope also, you might want to remove it and seeing what's happening with the open sights. You don't want to send the scope in with it anyway.

 

[maxxpower]

Update:

First, I mis-spoke about the Sommons. I have an UltraDot 30mm.

I checked all of the screws last night. I found several that needed some tightening down and one bigger problem. I'm not sure if it happened during my tightening or was already like this but the screw-hole on the bottom of ring has lost some of its thread. There's enogh thread to tighten it off of the rail but the rail makes it just too wide for the screw to hit thread.

So I'm waiting for their warranty people to get back to me. It has a life-time warranty and I'm hoping they'll make good on a new set of rings.

That leads me to another question. Are there better rings out there, or better designs? I see some rings have what looks like a more robust set-up... One screw to mount to the rail and 1 screw one each side. The Ultra Dot has one screw for the rail and one screw at the top.

 

[Old Navy]

Ok here is your most likely problem, optics improperly installed. These screws should be tightened down little at at time from one side to the other leaving an approx same size gap on each side of the optics.

Also use the purple Locktite that keeps screws tight but leaving the screws easy to remove. Having been trained in the field of optics and optical alignment I do know what I am talking about. Seen too many loose screws or improper torqued scopes shoot all over the place because of being loose or warped. Once warped the tube is junk and often it causes erratic shots due to loosened internals.

 

[redhawk444]

If you think the sight could be the culprit, try another sight, or failing in that, take the suspected sight off and reinstall the iron sights that came on the gun.

I assume that you can shoot better with iron at 25 yds than the performance you spoke of with the dot.

That should tell you whether it is the gun or the sight.

 

[maxxpower]

Ok here is your most likely problem, optics improperly installed. These screws should be tightened down little at at time from one side to the other leaving an approx same size gap on each side of the optics.

Also use the purple Locktite that keeps screws tight but leaving the screws easy to remove. Having been trained in the field of optics and optical alignment I do know what I am talking about. Seen too many loose screws or improper torqued scopes shoot all over the place because of being loose or warped. Once warped the tube is junk and often it causes erratic shots due to loosened internals.

I appreciate your experience and wisdom on this matter. Do you have an opinion on the two mounting options that I described?

 

[handgunner356]

Here's my favorite, Millett all steel dual dovetail, makes a nice clean install. Blue or nickle, 1" or 30mm, I prefer the blue on stainless guns because the nickle seems almost yellow compared to the stainless.

 

[Old Navy]

Handgunner has an excellent rig, it looks to be a quick release on the adapted small rim-fire dovetail. I would want a 4 screw mount if shooting heavy/hot loads maybe just for pease of mind, reality however it it is not needed unless you are into bigger caliber and automatics.

I have one of those two screws mounts, one screw on top of scope and one on bottom used to both hold scope and the mount to the base on the pistol or rifle. They work fine when mounted proper and not used on a heavy magnum like 44 to 500 if made from aluminum. I would not use the aluminum mounts with only one screw on each side to clamp scope to any center fire gun.

 

[handgunner356]

The Millett is not a quick release, the rings are twist locked into the base. It uses the three mounting holes on '93 up guns. I'd put it up againest any other mount for strength.

 

[Old Navy]

The Millet is not a quick release, the rings are twist locked into the base. It uses the three mounting holes on '93 up guns. I'd put it up against any other mount for strength.

Even better, just was hard to tell much from the left side. Here is the mount on my DW 722 (22WMR) looks funky but it really works great and has never failed even when on my 744 (44 Mag) and I will be moving it to the 715 (357 Mag) this spring for a while. Those are all Dan Wesson's I mentioned. It kind of looks like the rings mount to the gun but they mount to the mounts and then mounts are clamped to the vented rib of the barrel shroud. SA @ 2.25 lbs and DA is about 8 lbs but don't remember for sure.

 

[scooter123]

IT sounds like you've found the problem. I have found that I have to check for loosened screws on my 610 after every range outing. Last time I found the screw for hte adjustable sight had shot loose and the front screw on the sideplate was backed about halfway out of the hole. The sideplate screw was on me and from now on I'll give it a bit more torque when re-assembling the gun. However the mounting screw for the adjustable sight hadn't been touched by me, so it was a bit undertightened from the factory.

However there is another issue you should be aware of when shooting the 40 S&W in the 610. That is on some guns the reference ledge for the 10mm round can shave the jacketing from the shorter case cartridge when it fired. When this happens you'll see heavy leading not just in the barrel, you'll also see some buildup on the cylinders. In addition, those shaved jacket fragments lodge in tight to that ledge in the chambers and will prevent a 10mm round from fully seating in the chamber. The good news is that many have reported not having this problem, bad news for me is that it was an issue with my 610.

Following is a link that describes what I have done to correct this and I'll warn you that at present I have about 30 hours of hand stoning in my cylinder. Good news is that last time at the range I put 50 rounds downrange and did not find one single fragment of shaved jacketing in any of the chambers.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/102667-barrel-leading-issue-need-advice.html

 

[Old Navy]

IT sounds like you've found the problem. I have found that I have to check for loosened screws on my 610 after every range outing. Last time I found the screw for hte adjustable sight had shot loose and the front screw on the sideplate was backed about halfway out of the hole. The sideplate screw was on me and from now on I'll give it a bit more torque when re-assembling the gun. However the mounting screw for the adjustable sight hadn't been touched by me, so it was a bit undertightened from the factory.

However there is another issue you should be aware of when shooting the 40 S&W in the 610. That is on some guns the reference ledge for the 10mm round can shave the jacketing from the shorter case cartridge when it fired. When this happens you'll see heavy leading not just in the barrel, you'll also see some buildup on the cylinders. In addition, those shaved jacket fragments lodge in tight to that ledge in the chambers and will prevent a 10mm round from fully seating in the chamber. The good news is that many have reported not having this problem, bad news for me is that it was an issue with my 610.

Following is a link that describes what I have done to correct this and I'll warn you that at present I have about 30 hours of hand stoning in my cylinder. Good news is that last time at the range I put 50 rounds downrange and did not find one single fragment of shaved jacketing in any of the chambers.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/102667-barrel-leading-issue-need-advice.html

Guys if you would use the proper Loktite (purple) to keep the screws locked once propperly torgued they will not be backing out on you. I go through all screws like that and never have a problem.

As for the shaving of jacketed 40 caliber ammo that is very good advice, I forgot to mention it because I never shoot 10mm shorts because I handload.

 

[maxxpower]

Guys if you would use the proper Loktite (purple) to keep the screws locked once propperly torgued they will not be backing out on you. I go through all screws like that and never have a problem.

I have been using the Blue Loctite. I haven't seen the Purple. Is their a chain that carries it or do you order it?

 

[Old Navy]

I have been using the Blue Loctite. I haven't seen the Purple. Is their a chain that carries it or do you order it?

I had got it one time at O'Rileys auto parts and this last time about 3 or 4 months ago when MidwayUSA had it on sale.