Would any cop today feel an advantage with a .357 Magnum revolver?

Please forgive my ignorance but, what is a BUG ?

"BUG" = Back UP GUN. ( one old term = "hide out")

Usually a derringer, small revolver or small semi auto. Cal.s range from .22 to .45 ACP
Often carried in a ankle holster, back holster, pocket, belly band, etc. ( I wear a KILT alot, & mine is often in a "thigh holster", some times my "sporran")
Use = 2nd gun ( out of ammo in primary, Loss of primary, can not access primary, etc), Deep carry,etc.

The "old adage" = the "fastest reload" is a 2nd gun.

The Proffesor
 
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I have been helping run the range with a volunteer group that certifies retired law enforcement officers for the national carry permit. A typical class is 24 retired officers ( state patrol , sheriffs departments and municipal police departments ) . We ask them in the lecture portion of the class how many years they were in law enforcement and the total for the class is always around 600 years. About a third of the officers shoot revolvers ... usually 4" S&W . I am continually amazed by the accuracy these officers display shooting the qualification course which is the course used by the largest metropolitan police department in our state. If something happened I would feel well defended if one of these men or women were standing beside me with a revolver in hand. Some of the guys have significant physical problems and in spite of that do extremely well in the qualification. I agree with everyone who says that the crucial issue is accuracy.
 
Thanks!

Thanks for the reply, Proffesor.

BTW, I share your sentiments about a 2nd gun being the fastest reload. I've always felt this way.
 
As a LEO, I found myself in a close confrontation with an individual who was holding a S&W 44 mag. I had a Sig 228, which was pointed at this individual. I was not alone, I was wearing a ballistic vest, some of the others were not. This was at point blank distance. This occurred a short time after the Miami shootout, with which I was familiar. The individual looked at my gun and said, that's a 9mm, same as they used in Miami, I guarantee I will kill at least two of you. At that moment I thought about the Miami shooting, and I knew he was probably correct, and at that minute I would have given anything to have a shotgun, or at least a larger caliber pistol. Maybe right or maybe wrong, the knowledge of Miami kept me from pulling the trigger. I did not have enough faith in the 9mm killing this individual before he could fire the 44 mag.
I can say without a doubt I would have more faith in the 357, at least in this case. The 357 is a good round, however I believe that today there are better choices, for power and capacity.
 
All I can say is that my qualification scores and those of many others went way up when my dept transitioned from the 4" K frame .38+p to a Glock 19. I still want a 386NG w/ an action job though :-)).
 
I missed out on revolvers in law enforcement. I started in 1996, my fist duty weapon was a Beretta 92. I've worked for several agencies over my LE career, but every one has had an issued duty auto that I was required to carry. None of the departments had any older guys still carrying revolvers either, though I worked along side officers from other departments from time to time that were "grandfathered" and were carrying them.

I wouldn't feel the least bit uncomfortable carrying a revolver in .357 Magnum (provided it was actually loaded with magnum ammunition) on-duty. However, if I could choose my own duty weapon, as much as I like revolvers, I would choose the most recent generation 4566 TSW with the rail integral to the frame, a decocking lever (no safety), Trijicon Novak Night Sights, and a magazine disconnect. No, its not the most modern or lightweight pistol, nor does it have the near bottomless capacity of many plastic pistols, but its solid, reliable, accurate, and shoots my favorite auto pistol chambering. Its too bad its basically a dead stick.

As it stands, my department is in the process of switching duty weapons. I was just issued a generation 4 Glock 22 on Monday to replace my Beretta 96FS. I know the Glock is a functional weapon, but its just about the opposite of what I want in a duty pistol; plastic, lightweight, and chambered in my least favorite auto pistol cartridge. Oh well.
 
Miami shootout clarification, part deux

Long guns: This was a rolling stakeout involving one whole squad and agents from a nearby Resident Agency. There were lots of long guns amongst the many agents on the stakeout. When the shooting went down, fate deemed there be two shotguns available. SSA McNeill decided against using his and used his Model 19 instead, taking one of the guys out of the fight. He later questioned his own judgment in doing this, but he did have a shotgun available.

SA Mireles used his 870, famously wielding it one handed. He shot a Bu-car and the bad guys' feet.

Vests: Almost 25 years after this shooting, the FBI still issues me a vest that wouldn't have stopped Platt's Mini-14 rounds. At any rate, SSA McNeill was shot in the neck and hand, SA Mireles was shot in the arm, SA Hanlon was shot in the groin, and SA Dove was shot in the head. Only SA Grogan was shot in an area that would have been covered by a vest, which wouldn't have stopped the rounds with which he was shot, anyway.

That said, they should have been wearing their vests. Believe me, the FBI makes it abundantly clear that agents now must wear vests on any arrest.

If anything, I think the 4/11/86 shootout contributed greatly to the "rifle-ization" of American law enforcement. I work with young agents now who hang an M4 around their necks for the simplest arrest. I prefer a more low-key approach, especially on knock and talks. Its hard to charm your way into a house when you're standing next to a guy who looks like he fell out of a helicopter on his way to take Fallujah.
 
I kind of get the impression that some of the lessons of Miami are starting to get lost again. I am afraid that means that LE, as a community, is going to have to learn them again and that will probably be from another Miami type incident. The time for long guns in policing is when one is going to a known gun call. I can't tell you how many times I have responded to a gun call of one type or another and been the only officer on the scene with a long gun. There really is no excuse for that, my PD issues a Mini-14 and a 12 gauge to every officer. Folks seem to have forgotten that handguns are for when you don't think you are going to need a gun, long guns are for when you have some warning that you might.
 
When my first agency switched from the 681 to the Glock 17 I don't recall scores improving significantly. The poor shooters still shot poorly. We also dropped the 50 yard shooting at this time.
One dept. I work for now issues the Glock 21SF and while I feel confident it will do it's job I still don't like it. My other agency issues the Glock 23 but allows us to carry what we want so I carry a revolver.I currently use a 6in. Model 14 loaded with Rem. 158SWCHP(3 Safariland speedloaders) and have every confidence in it. I can shoot this gun faster and with better accuracy than any gun I own other than my Python. I think my ability to put the rounds where they need to go quickly outweights any other factors. I do see a 586 or a GP100 in the future though
 
I kind of get the impression that some of the lessons of Miami are starting to get lost again...

True.

One of those important lessons was that it is incredibly difficult for the average LEO to reload a revolver quickly under stress, while being shot it, after having been shot, and/or while trying to move to cover.

Another lesson was that the results on the target/qualification range are not the same as during the gunfight. The offender moves and takes action against you, which the paper/cardboard scoring target does not. One poster here mentioned the high number of shots fired in relation to hits, as evidence of some lack of marksmanship. While this might be true in some cases, the reality is that it is difficult to hit - and instantly incapacitate - a determined offender under the circumstances of a gunfight, esp such as Miami in which there were cover/barriers and concealment and sun glare issues.

The FBI standard of firearms training was and is well above that of the average US LEO, yet the revolver proved to be a poor choice of weapon for the Miami encounter, all things considered. Limited ammunition capacity in the weapon and reloads, difficult to fire rapidly with accuracy, and difficult to reload under stress. Yet as has been noted, even with the limitation of their weapons and circumstances, the murderous offenders were ultimately stopped, at a cost of many agents severely wounded or killed.

Today's offender is better armed, and better trained (yes they practice), and his choice of weapon is not the 6-shot .32 of old, but the high-capacity .40 Glock or similar pistol, in addition to high-capacity semi-auto carbines, and shotguns. The revolver armed LEO is out gunned, fatally.

The high-capacity pistol gives you more chances to hit and incapacitate under street circumstances. Six is often not enough, even for the marksman. The pistol also fires faster, reloads faster (and can be done while moving), and is adequately accurate and powerful for the task.

It is all well and good to talk about "bringing handguns to a rifle fight", but that is not the reality of policing in America. The rifle/carbine/shotgun does not lend itself to the everyday work of policing, and I hope America never becomes a place where it does. The shoulder weapons that are available are useful, but the handgun is the weapon of the now and immediate, and usually the only weapon available when the LEO must deal with the typical reactive - as opposed to planned - threat.

Although I started with a .357 revolver, I would absolutely not choose a revolver as a duty weapon in this day and age. Off-duty, or as a civilian, it could be a wise choice. But not for duty.
 
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If my department told me I could carry any .357 I wanted I would carry my own 4" 627 eight shooter and live happily ever after. Ammo consideration would be equally important too, and I'd expect to be able to use something bonded or unleaded to take advantage of the .357's velocity. Full power .357 is not that bad in my 627.

If I could pick any gun, either auto or revolver, I'd take my 3" 625 .45 ACP. My hit factors on the two six shot stages of last week's USPSA classifier match prove that for those first six shots I can outshoot the majority of Limited, L-10 and Production shooters at the match using my concealed carry revolver and a leather concealment holster. Good hits beat the fast misses both in the match and on the street.

If I had to use a Model 10 I wouldn't complain, but again ammo choice would be very important.

Dave Sinko
 
I would rather carry 11 or 12 rounds in two revolvers than 14-17 in one auto....especially if you can reach the backup with your weak hand. I carry extra ammo and long guns available too. I am in a plain clothes assignment and have some latitude so that is what I choose. GP100 with an sp101 backup....the LCR looks interesting though.
 
I have carried three different guns since 1972. Two were Glocks (9mm & 40 S&W) but started with a model 19 S&W and then a Model 66.

To this day, I will take a .357 over any of the calibers out there and certainly over a semi.

We made many mistakes in the past with law enforcement. Adding larger amounts of ammo only created officers that miss more often. The older officers traded accuracy for capacity. Now it takes more shots to hit the target. Years ago we were hitting the target 100% of the time with the revolver. Now it takes 16+ rounds to hit a barn door.

When you have a limited amount of ammo readily available, you make shots count.

Never had a revolver hang up on me and never worried about a magazine going bad.
 
Do some research on the Newhall Incident, CHP Officer Pence was killed execution style as he attempted to reload his model 28, I'm pretty certain he would have liked something along the lines of a Glock 17 with its huge magazine capacity on that fateful night. Not much can be said for Gore and Frago, bad tactics were their downfall. Officer Allen's revolver only had one round in it after he was mortally wounded, it was picked up by a citizen who witnessed the shoot out, he fired the remaining round at the murderer Davis then had to run for his life due to being out of ammo, the hero citizen probably would have chosen something with a hi-cap mag if he had to do it over again.
 
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^
Speed-Loaders
I believe this incident lead to the CHP being the first police department to officially adopt speedloaders.

Also, accuracy and other tactics have a part in the newhall incident. Giving those guys Glock 17s I don't believe would have changed the outcome
 
I shot with cops NYPD at Rodman's neck Bronx that with their model 10's that could'nt honestly hit the berm at 25 yards. This was 28 years ago. Still a cop now. Age and revolvers have nothing to do with accuracy.. It's an outright lie to say a revolver with six rounds is more accurate than a 13-17 round semi. Believe whatever you want more rounds DO equal a better percentage of being alive after a gun fight. Less is not better because it comes from a pretty metal and wood intimidating weapon. Lie to yourself all you want and hopefully you will never be in a shootout where your six rounds are gone and you did'nt even know you shot a single one. No skell or perp will approach and shoot you dead while you still have rounds in the gun and are still shooting, hitting or not. Death happens when you fumble with your speed loaders and speed strips, and paper weight is empty.
 
Let me start by saying more ammo is never a bad thing but that has to take a back seat to hitting your target. I think we are all in agreement with this.

A revolver may or may not be more accurate than an auto, depends on both the guns and ammunition.

If we follow the logic that more is always better to it's natural conclusion we will all end up with belt fed systems.

I see people fumble reloading their autos all the time. I have seen smooth reloads with a wheelgun. Does this prove when system is better than the other, no. It showed one cop had more skill and practiced more than the others.

If you have a choice (and many do not) figure out your needs, pick a system and practice with it.
 

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