.38 S&W, Colt VS Smith...

[canoeguy]

Did some experimenting at the range today, testing out a .38 S&W load to introduce new shooters, (youth specifically) to shooting centerfire revolvers. The load is 2.2 grains Bullseye under a .358 diameter lead round nose bullet, for a published velocity of 625 feet per second. Shot the load in a 4" Colt Police Positive, and a Smith and Wesson Australian Victory Model.

Recoil was very mild, accuracy "Adequate", not as good as a 4" .38 Special revolver, but good enough for youngsters to get started. Results shown below, 10 rounds fired off hand (no rest) at 15 yards..

Colt Police Positive (center hold):

Australian Victory Model, ("2 o'clock" hold)

I think the Colt comes out the winner as the sights are well regulated for this load, the Victory Model was designed for a heavier bullet, so you have to aim high to get hits in the black. Also, the Colt is more compact, easier to shoot for those with small hands.

By the way, the Colt is a 1961 vintage Royal Hong Kong Police marked revolver...

 

[walnutred]

If the Colt is a RHKP revolver in theory it should be regulated for the same load as the Smith. Which indicates Colt left the revolvers regulated for the US 146 gn load, not the British .380 MkII 174gn ammo.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Years ago I loaded the 38 S&W using 2.7 grains of Bullseye and Speer HBWCs, I got 38 Special accuracy out of my Enfield No. 2 Mk I.

 

[Texas Star]

Years ago I loaded the 38 S&W using 2.7 grains of Bullseye and Speer HBWCs, I got 38 Special accuracy out of my Enfield No. 2 Mk I.

That's probably because the hollow base expanded to fill the barrel properly. The caliber nominally uses .359-.360 bullets.

Is your Enfield a DA-only model? The triggers on those are usually pretty hard. The version with selective DA fire should shoot a little better in hammer-cocked mode.

Elmer Keith wrote that the .38 S&W usually shot very well, although being anemic power-wise.

T-Star

 

[cmort666]

Back in the '80s when I was in the Army, I had a Victory Model in .38S&W. It was a nice gun, but not terribly useful except for fun.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I have an all original 1932 dated specimen, SA/DA. I always thought the HBWC was a quick and easy way of dealing with varying bore diameters.

 

[GatorFarmer]

If memory serves, the Smith and Wesson revolvers (of wartime make for export) had a larger bore diameter than the Webleys and Enfields. The Colts did not. This may have continued after the war as well. Check to see what the Smith actually is, .358 diameter bullets may be a looser fit in it than in the Colt.

I doubt that much 174gr MKII ball was to be had in the US to regulate guns, they were probably sighted in with the old .38SW 200 gr police loadings in an attempt to replicate the British .38/200 ctg.

 

[walnutred]

I doubt that much 174gr MKII ball was to be had in the US to regulate guns, they were probably sighted in with the old .38SW 200 gr police loadings in an attempt to replicate the British .38/200 ctg.

Maybe, though I would think that if someone were placing a large order for fixed sight revolvers like that they would specify what ammo they be sighted for.

However we are talking about the British, so maybe not.

 

[cmort666]

However we are talking about the British [about to be invaded], so maybe not.

There, fixed that for you.

The Brits were DESPERATE in 1940-1941. Some of the things they bought or planned to make were simply astonishing.

Of course that wasn't the first time. During WWI, they ran out of .455 Webleys and bought large quantities of rather iffy Spanish S&W top break copies, including one with a pointed projection on the bottom of the grip frame, presumably for bashing skulls.

 

[sjmjax]

I've posted this one a few times in the past. I like shooting the S&W 33-1 and the Colt Police Positives in .38 S&W.

Both have performed quite well with this load. A bit hotter than what you're using. Colt actually shoots a bit tighter group with this load but don't happen to have a picture on file. 5 shot group shot at 7 yards can be covered with a dime. Standing two hand hold.

158 grain LSWC or LRN with 3.0 grains of Unique.

 

[Texas Star]

As a footnote, the "Police Positive" shown is really a Police Positive Special, with the longer frame for the .38 Special. By the time of that order, Colt had stopped making the true Police Positive. Those weren't continued after WW II. Production probably stopped in 1941, although some guns may have been assembled from parts on hand.
To fill postwar Commonwealth orders, Colt simply chambered some of the Special guns for .38 S&W. They also made the Official Police in .38/200 to fill some wartime orders, although nowhere nearly as many were acquired as were S&W's. I think these were mostly given Parkerized finishes and the barrels were marked Commando. Wouldn't surprise me, though, if some came through with regular blue finishes and Official Police markings.

Much later, Colt marked some Specials as Police Positive, which can confuse people, as S&W has had more than one Bodyguard. This was in the 1970's and '80's.

I would expect these guns to shoot quite a bit better than shown. Either the load is poorly chosen, or someone needs to learn to shoot better!

Bore diameters are wider in .38/200 in Webley and Enfield arms. Metal jacketed 178 grain (not 174 grain) bullets have occasionally stuck in S&W barrels. (.303 rifle bullets of MK VII type did have 174 grain bullets. This may have confused one poster above.)

T-Star

 

[canoeguy]

Dang Texas Star, I thought I was holding pretty good with these old guns!

I have never been able to find a good accuracy load in .38 S&W, the best I have been able to attain is "Adequate", what with questionable bore diameters and sights regulated for who knows what weight of bullet.

Seriously, I can tell Smith and Wesson made great strides with thier sights and accuracy in the post war guns. My efforts show better with my favorite Model 64 in .38 Special.....

Thanks for the info regarding the Police Positive "Special".

 

[charlie sherrill]

Ah, it brings back memories. I was once invited (dispatched) to a shooting that occurred at a birthday party. "Birthday Boy" had a switch blade knife, which was an obvious bad choice for a gunfight, and the "guest" had an old top break S&W in .38 S&W. When I arrived the "guest" had departed and "Birthday Boy" lay dead on the floor. The "guest" was later located and incarcerated. The .38 S&W had gone through his heart and out his back and was lodged halfway into a door moulding that was previously behind him. I still remember the participants names.

I have two S&W's that are chambered for the round. One is a five shot snubby that has killed only one lawyer (I may talk about that later) and the other is a New Zealand Victory. I have shot both of them on several occasions and although I wasn't impressed with their power, (they bounce off metal freon bottles while .38 special go through both sides)apparently "Birthday Boy" was. The "guest" was shot and killed a block away in an unrelated incident shortly after serving three years for a manslaughter conviction related to the birthday party.

What were we talking about? Oh yeah, shot placement is more important than caliber.

 

[Old 44 Guy]

The only 38 S&W I have left is a DA 3rd Model Made about 1887. I get it out & shoot it occasionaly with 2 Gr, Bullseye & 146 gr HBWC. Old Elmer was right about accuracy out of these old guns. Old , worn & pitted, they still shoot well. Small,tiny sights & these old eyes still keep 'em into a playing card sized group at 7 yds. I sure love those old Smiths.