Evaluate this statement please

[jrb_pro]

"There is no reason to *EVER* go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does NOT result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2" barrels."

Go.

 

[Retired LTC USAR]

I would have to disagree with that statement. If the bullets are different weights, then the energy would be different, and if they were the same weight but going different speeds, I believe there would also be a difference in the energy.

The only way yo determine terminal performance would be to shot two identical subjects and see what the end result is.

 

[jonbondave]

I think that statment is probably true for average joe guy who buys one handgun, for many roles. But not everyone is recoil sensitive. some people barely notice.

 

[4inch357]

Energy is not necessarily a good indicator. The best one can do is shoot intended rounds into ballistic gel, measure expansion and penetration. Before the I don't plan on defending myself from gel crowd comes in: It is the best approximation to shooting real people there is going at the moment; and, no one can predict how an individual is going to react to being shot (cough Marshall & Sanow cough). Handgun rounds don't have all the wounding charateristics of high power rifles so if a bullet is going 1000fps or 1300fps the speed by itself isn't going to be an issue in and of itself, more important is how does that given bullet expand at that given speed.

 

[feralmerril]

Just take a 357 mag j frame with the same weight bullet in both 38 and 357 ammo, check the velocity and calculate the differance. The word "substancial" is what its about, whether there is "enough" gain to make the extra flash, blast and recoil to make it all worthwhile. About 25 years ago I read a interesting article where someone compared 9mm to 357 in a snub nose I think ruger where both were available in otherwise identical guns, and he had results that showed the 9mm beat the 357!

 

[XTrooper]

I know some "experts" subscribe to this belief and I know whose statement this is, but to believe this you must completely discount any possible effect of kinetic energy on your target. Other learned men consider this a foolish notion and I concur.

 

[Wheelgunner840]

jrb_pro;"There is no reason to *EVER* go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does NOT result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2" barrels."

Go.

Shhhh! Don't tell my 640-1. It thinks that it has more power and is easily controlled when firing .357 mags!

Seriously, the statement above is based on the definition of "substantially", which is a very subjective term. I don't think that anyone could argue that the .38 special cartridge (even +P) has anywhere near the power of the .357 mag cartridge. The author of the quote is also using the term "more controllable". This is also subjective.

I think that for those of us that shoot a lot, the quote rings less than true on both counts.


WG840

 

[Doc Mark]

Morning, All,

My own experiences in firing .357 rounds through any short-barreled revolver, have convinced me that FOR ME, I have no desire to repeat it! Recoil is part of it, as I don't get back on target as fast as I would if shooting .38 Specials in the same gun. But, for those that have never touched off a .357 in a snubby, INSIDE a dark house, without hearing protection, I think you may be a bit "surprised", if you ever had to do that! I know that I was!! Blind and deaf, Friends, for a good while after having pulled the trigger!!! So, for me, I find it far better to use the old FBI load, 158 grain LWSCHP +P, in my J-frame guns, as the flash is far less, the decibel level is FAR less, and I can get back on target much more quickly with it, than with a .357 snub.

Others may have varying mileage, which is good. But, I'd seriously recommend that anyone who wants to shoot a .357 in a snub, do so in a dark, closed room, at night (of course), with no hearing protection, and then see how you truly feel about it. One shot was all I needed to convince me that the .38 Special, with that old FBI load, was all I would shoot in my J-frame guns, when I use them for home defense. Oh, and those 158 grain loads shoot almost exactly to POA, too, which is what it's all about, for me, anyway. For what it's worth.... Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

 

[Roadranger]

I just acquired a no-lock 340M&P CT for my 60th birthday. My distributor had 1000 boxes of Hornady 125 gr. 357 Magnum Critical Defense ammo in stock. I ordered one box for carry use and plan to shoot 38's for training. The CD ammo is listed at 1500 FPS on the box. When I have time, I"m going to chronograph it to see what it does in the 340. In the mean time , I have a 13.3 ounce J-frame with a tridium front sight and Laser grips which will shoot 38's as well as magnums. I boxed up my no-lock M442 for sale. If we ever see a M43, that's going to be my j-frame training gun. Bob

 

[Dump1567]

No offense, but this would be better posted where the individual who wrote this could be involved in the discussion.

I've posted his info. on .38 spl ammo over here a few times and feel it's an excellent read.

I think his statement is a pretty good guideline for those that don't have the time or resources to do there own testing. And I've got to believe he's done his research on this matter and knows that of which he speaks.


For those wondering where this comes from:
BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp - M4Carbine.net Forums

He also posts in that forum if anyone has any questions.

And the original quote doesn't state "EVER".

There is no reason to go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does not result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2" barrels.

But other experts may disagree.

And a very important part of his post is the last sentence.

As always, don't get too wrapped in the nuances of ammunition terminal performance. Spend your time and money on developing a warrior mindset, training, practice, and more training.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

That's statement as posted is just a bunch of BS, plain and simple.

You may get back on target quicker with a .38, but that has nothing to do with terminal ballistics. The .357 is definately more effective regardless.

The info below was taken from real world shootings with a wide variety of loads, and in the case of the .38 +P loads, the barrel length is shown. The fact that most of the shootings compiled here are from LE involved shooting statistics, it's highly probable that the guns are either 2" BUG's, or 4" duty weapons. same as what is shown for the .38.

This pretty much tells the story if you ask me.

Disclaimer- (no ballistic gell was wounded or injured in the gathering of this data)

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp

 

[photoman]

Some people can shoot .357 mag ammo in a J frame well, some can't.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

That statement didn't/doesn't read to me like they are saying that someone can controll a .38 better, but rather that they are saying that in a 2" gun, the .38 is basically equal to the .357, and it simply isn't so.

 

[XTrooper]

But other experts may disagree.

And they do.

I really have no dog in this fight because I'm not out to convince anyone of anything, but I feel the need to clarify one thing. The statement above that "......the .357 Magnum does not result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2" barrels" is based strictly on the results of ballistic gelatin tests (average diameter, average penetration, etc) and takes no account of and leaves no room for the effect of kinetic energy on a human target because this can't be measured in a laboratory where all these "truths" are formulated.

Now if you believe that an additional 300 ft-lbs of energy will have no effect on your target than you should have no problem with the belief that we shouldn't be wasting our time with .357 Magnum snub-nosed revolvers. However, if you believe this additional energy can and does have an effect on a fluid medium like the human body, than I would suggest following your own beliefs on the matter.

 

[photoman]

There are some hot .38 Special loads out there that chrono just as fast as some of the mild .357 loads. It depends on the ammo and the gun.

It's a very common myth that all .357 ammo is no faster than .38 when shot out of a short barrel and that's been proven false many times.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Evaluate this statement

"There is no reason to *EVER* go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does NOT result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2" barrels."

Go.

The sentence is too long and the syntax is a bit labored.

 

[XTrooper]

The sentence is too long.........

If written in the German language, it would be a bit terse.

 

[mtime7]

I think the sentence is subjective..
But my opinion is to use the 38s.. I am one of those that believe, its not the size of the gun or ammo that counts its where you place your shot

 

[Kelly Green]

I think the sentence is subjective..
But my opinion is to use the 38s.. I am one of those that believe, its not the size of the gun or ammo that counts its where you place your shot

You are correct. A bullet only has to travel at 163 fps to penetrate skin and 213 fps to break bone. That's low compared to what a .38 or .357 round travels, even from a 1 7/8" barrel.

Shoot what you're most comfortable with and can control easily. Shot placement is what matters.

 

[XTrooper]

You are correct. A bullet only has to travel at 163 fps to penetrate skin and 213 fps to break bone. That's low compared to what a .38 or .357 round travels, even from a 1 7/8" barrel.

Shoot what you're most comfortable with and can control easily. Shot placement is what matters.

If the goal is to only penetrate skin and/or break a bone, then I guess this would matter, but since the goal is to incapacitate your attacker as quickly as possible, this bit of trivia is meaningless.

The importance of shot placement goes without saying for most of us, but the idea that "its not the size of the gun or ammo that counts" is true only to a point. For instance, no matter how accurate someone may be with their trusty .25 or .32 ACP, it doesn't add up to much of a defensive weapon.

My view is you should carry and shoot the hottest ammo you can effectively handle. If that's .38 Special +P ammo, that's fine. If you can proficiently shoot .357 Magnum loads from your snubby, all the better.