Does This Cartridge Belt Go With This Early 1903 Springfield?

[Wyatt Burp]

This 1903 Rock Island Arsenal 30-06 has been in the family as long as I remember. It's serial # is 196X and it's one of those with the "weak" recievers. It never stopped me from using it as a long range plinker through the years. My question is about that cartridge belt. Stripper clip ammo fits perfect. I faintly remember Garand clips being in there as a kid but this ammo just fits too perfect. Can any of you military experts date the cartridge belt and would you shoot this rifle despite the reciever "issues" of these early Springfields? I will again.

 

[P&R Fan]

I can't comment on the belt, but I've always read that the early '03s that were not double heat treated should not be fired. In Col. Brophy's book he addresses this and advises not to, but acknowledges the fact that it is done. In case anyone reading this is wondering, Spingfield Armory '03s with serial numbers below 800,000 and Rock Island Arsenal ones below 285,507 are considered the weak actions. I have one in the safe that was my late Fathers that I would love to shoot, but I really don't want to take the chance. I am interested though in what loads you have safely fired in it.
Jim

 

[Wyatt Burp]

I can't comment on the belt, but I've always read that the early '03s that were not double heat treated should not be fired. In Col. Brophy's book he addresses this and advises not to, but acknowledges the fact that it is done. In case anyone reading this is wondering, Spingfield Armory '03s with serial numbers below 800,000 and Rock Island Arsenal ones below 285,507 are considered the weak actions. I have one in the safe that was my late Fathers that I would love to shoot, but I really don't want to take the chance. I am interested though in what loads you have safely fired in it.
Jim

My dad had a bunch of old military ammo and I believe that's what I shot in it. This was in the 1980's and I was aware of the heat treating issue but didn't care. Now I do care but will still probably chance it occasionally. I think that's some of that old ammo in the pictures. There might even be something to worry about with the old ammo which I should be concerned about also. I love the old warhorse, though. It's a shame we can't confidently take our dads' old rifles out and bang away with them. If the concensus here is it's insane to shoot it, then I won't. I don't want to be picking chunks of rifle out of my face.

 

[jimmyj]

The cartridge belts that I remember had a snap strap in each pocket for carrying either two five round 1903 stripper clips or one eight round M1 garand clip.
Your's would made me think that it is an original 1903 cartridge belt.
JimmyJ

 

[2152hq]

Nice rifle ,,nice cartridge belt.

There are many variations of the belt from the earliest for use with the 1903 on up to the Garand.

Does it have separators inside the pockets to keep the individual 5 shot clips apart when packed into a pocket? Some used a fabric material(web) separator,,some a small strap w/snap.
I don't see the extra snap under the flap of the open pocket in the pic, so I'd hazzard a guess that there's no strap separators.

Cartridge belts for the '03 used the ones with the separators, but then the same belts were used for both the 03 and the Garand later.
Later production belts dropped the pocket separators altogether.

Some early production belts have had the separators removed by prior users when armed w/the Garand.

I think the 'Lift the Dot' type snaps are post 1914 mfg'r. The belt hardware is usually marked with the mfg. name. 'Mills' is the most common. Sometimes inked stamped into the web mat'l also but that fades and wears over the years.

I don't think I've seen one with the rounded pocket flap ends. All I can recall is the ones with the two corners folder to a point and sewen into place. But it's been a long time since I was in to this stuff.

>

I shoot my Low# '03 too. It's a Sedgley mfg'r. Sporter made in the 1920's. Built on the old Low# Springfield receivers and parts sold as scrap by the gov't w/ Sedgley's sporter stock, Winchester Bbl & buttplate and Lyman 48 recv'r sight.
But then I also shoot damascus shotguns w/ smokeless powder loads too.

 

[walnutred]

I agree the round flaps look odd. If there are no markings on the brass or under one of the flaps I wonder if it is not a European copy of a Garand belt.

 

[Faulkner]

You have an interesting cartridge belt. I looked in several of my reference books and have it kind of narrowed down to a couple of different models.

At first glance it looks like a M1903 cartridge belt because of the easily recognized "unpuckered" bottom, but the M1903 only had 9 pockets. Also, looks like yours has lift-the-dot fasteners which were not utilized until 1917 and afterwards. Lastly, the belt is too narrow for a M1903.

Since it has 10 pockets and other features noted above, and after looking at the chart in "The M1903 Springfield Rifle and it's variants" by Joe Poyer, and reviewing the information in Bruce Canfield's "A Collectors Guide to the '03 Springfield", I would suggest you potentially have a M1917. Of the 16 or so variants of the cartridge belt issued for the M1903 rifle, only three are of the 10 pocket variety.

The cartridge belts produced prior to 1914 had a smooth, non rimmed, snap button with an eagle insignia on each pocket. The belts made from 1914 to early 1917 had a similar eagle button on each pocket but the button had a rim aournd the outside of it. The belts produced from about mid-1917 on had the familiar lift-the-dot fastener.

Each pocket of the cartridge belt was intended to hold two five round "clips" of ammunitino. Some belts will have a divider in each pocket while others, mainly later belts, will have a strap with a snap fastener to seperate the clips in each pocket. The M1938 belt, designed to be issued with either the M1903 or M1 rifle, was intended to hold either two five round '03 clips or one eight round Garand clip.

The M1938 cartridge belt was of the 12 pocket variety. Interestingly, most belts issued during WWII were actually 10 pocket M1928 belts designed for the M1903, and both M1923 and M1938 belts were manufactured during WWII.

Again, yours appears similar to a M1917, but the unpuckered pockets throw it off a bit, and it doesn't quite seem to fit the description of the M1923 either. Interesting that I don't see any markings either . . . even well worn USGI issue belts and cartridge pouches will usually show indications of the original ink markings.

 

[chief38]

I would agree with Jimmy 100% on the cartridge belt. The WWll versions I have and have seen all have the extra canvas strap within the pockets.

As far as strength of the rifle is concerned, I can not comment because I am not familiar with the '03's, but if there is a serious concern why not down-load the cartridges (assuming you do reload). If you do not, see if you can find someone who does.

Chief38

 

[deadin]

It's serial # is 196X

A 4 digit RIA?? Does it have the original barrel? (Barrel date should be '06)

If so, I don't think I would take a chance of having it crack as it's a pretty scarce rifle

 

[straightshooter1]

I collected 03s for many years and I think your rifle has been updated from the original.

It has the two stock bolts (the earlier ones had none, then one) and the bolt handle appears, from the photos, to be swept back which indicates a post WW1 date (again, I may be wrong about the swept back bolt handle, but the photos make it appear so-the originals are straight).

I am not sure about the belt, but it is, IMO, not an early one since there are no eagle insignias on the snaps. I have seen a lot of foreign copies at Army-Navy stores and gun shows but I have no idea if this is one or not.

I often shot my early guns, except for an original 4 digit SN Springfield converted from one of the rod bayonet models.
That one was too valuable and, about six or seven years ago, sold for big bucks on GB.

I only used light cast loads in my early receivers.

Bob

 

[Wyatt Burp]

A 4 digit RIA?? Does it have the original barrel? (Barrel date should be '06)

If so, I don't think I would take a chance of having it crack as it's a pretty scarce rifle

The gun has a refinished stock and if I recall without dragging it out again, a 1944 marked barrel.

2152hg and Faulkner, thanks for the thorough info on stuff to look for on that belt. There is no partician or remnants of a partician in the ammo pouches.
chief38, I reload but not for this most common of calibers. This rifle has more heirloom status for me so I go back and forth about shooting it, but the reciever is really, really early alright.

 

[gregintenn]

I have an early Springfield, and I believe it has been arsenal overhauled twice, and the barrel on it now is nearly shot out. If it hasn't come apart by now, I'm not real worried. I shoot factory ammo in mine, along with the same hanloads I shoot in other rifles.

 

[irishjig]

nice back ground

 

[BruceHMX]

Good looking early rifle that was re-worked for WW2. I would pick up some 100gr Speer Plinkers and load them with 10gr's of Unique. No way that gun will come apart with that load and a lot of fun to shoot. Just my .02.

 

[walnutred]

The only referance I could find regarding actual early Springfield failures said that there were around 100 total failures documented with aproximatly 1,000,000 rifles being manufactured brefore the heat treating changed. If those numbers are correct it seems low numbered Springfields have a lower documented failure rate than Glocks.

On the other hand they are around 100 years old now, so I would not choose one for a main matfch rifle.

 

[Armyphotog]

Yes. Maybe even the .30-03. The belt should be marked and dated somewhere by the manufacturer.

 

[Pilgrim]

If it has a 1944 barrel, that means it was shot a whole lot between 1903 and 1944 and possibly after 1944. Who knows, it could have had any number of shot out barrels replaced on it before 1944.

If it was going to fail, it would have by now.

Personally I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[PALADIN85020]

I agree that you have a later cartridge belt that does not match the era of the gun.

Like you, I have one "low numbered" 1903 Springfield. There is considerable evidence that it has been shot in the past, maybe a lot, because I found a cardboard shim in the stock under the barrel near the muzzle. This was a common practice for guns used in competition back in the day. I own eight other '03s of various types, and as they are all high numbered, those are the ones I shoot. My low-number is of 1906 vintage, and is one of those originally chambered in .30-03 and altered to '06. It was manufactured in January of 1906, and carries a barrel marked 8/08. The "A" mark under the date on the barrel indicates that it was returned to Springfield Armory for "clean and repair" per the Springfield Armory endorsement of 8/5/12. So it's evident that sometime after 8/12 it was re-barreled to '06 specs. It's amazing how you can deduce a lot of a rifle's history from reading the marks on it.

At any rate, I don't shoot it. This straight-handled century-old rifle will remain in the rack; it's a relic now, and an interesting one that I don't want to risk by shooting. By the way, it appears your rifle now bears a replacement bolt; the tip-off is that the bolt handle is slanted to the rear rather than straight down. Over the years, so many of the original rifles have been arsenal- and civilian-altered with new sights, barrels, bolts, stocks and finishes that finding one in original configuration is really uncommon. They are all interesting, though, and the 1903s are very special rifles.

John