Ok..So Now I'm Angry...S&W Problems On New Revolver

[MrChubbs]

The first S&W 637 Pro Port that I ordered was defective. It was replaced under warranty with a new revolver, same model.

I just returned from the shooting range. Shot with different ammo on various paper targets.

At 15 feet, all 158 grain ammunition tumbles like crazy. Also, at 15 feet, all 125 grain and 135 grain DO NOT tumble.

What the hell is going on with S&W? Regardless of the grain, my revolver should shoot it, period. Tomorrow their customer service is going to get an ear full.

 

[gr7070]

How many kinds of ammo have you tried? Is this factory ammo? Cast ammo?

There could be reasons for this that are not gun related.

 

[MrChubbs]

How many kinds of ammo have you tried? Is this factory ammo? Cast ammo?

There could be reasons for this that are not gun related.

Winchester, PMC and Speer. All 158 grain tumbled....all 125 grain and 135 grain didn't tumble. All factory ammo.

 

[gr7070]

It doesn't sound like it's the ammo???

 

[xcop]

Many people I know have the tumbling issue with the new snubbies. Apparently this is related to the electro chemical rifling they started a few years ago. They also have made the choice to avoid lead 158 or 148gr rounds. One sent his revolver back two times and still says the barrel looks like a smoothbore shotgun barrel. They seem to have good luck with the 130+p Winchester and the 135+p Speer though.

 

[scooter123]

LRN or jacketed bullets? It matters. At least it does in my 620, which features the new style rifling, the one time that I tried Blazer 158 gn. LRN in it the leading in the barrel was just horrible, enough so that I would consider it a safety hazzard.

However, I don't have any complaints to make about the new style rifling, I just make sure to ONLY use jacketed ammo in it. As for why, I've personally shot a 7/8 inch group at 50 YARDS with the 620 and believe that it's capable of grouping an inch or less at 100 YARDS in better hands than mine. I also have a 610-3 with this new style rifling an 1.5 inch groups at 25 yards is a yawner. At some point I'll put the scope on it and see what the 610 can do at 50 yards.

 

[Dave T]

Anyone besides me offended by yet another "cost cutting measure" that reduces the effectiveness and utility of a gun? It would appear S&W has decided we don't need to shoot 158g bullets in these little guns, this despite the fact that many consider the 158g LSWC+P to be the best load for self defense.

Dave

 

[senecaap]

Vote with your dollars and quit buying the new S&Ws. No one likes the cost cutting (quality cutting) measures,and the lock is a constant bone of contention. As long as people lap it up they will keep making them and keep laughing.
And if I had a .38 that couldn't shoot the 158s, I would return it and inform the New S&W where they could insert it. No 158s for me would mean "No Shooting."

 

[Stainz]

I have a 642-2, 2" 10-11, 3" 60 Pro, and a pair of 2 5/8" PC627 UDR's, all bought new, from which I have shot 148gr LWC's (Zero) and +P 158gr LHPSWC's in .38 Spcl (The latter both Remington R38S12 and GA Arms' reloads.) and all left one nicely cut round hole in paper targets - or a round entry hole in a 2L pop bottle full of water and a huge exit hole, all at 12-15yd. I can't imagine it being the revolver's barrel, but slugging it to see if it is oversized would be simple enough.

Try shooting from a sandbag to negate any effect of 'limp wristing' during the recoil. My 642-2 is unreal in it's accuracy - it and the 2" 10-11 are far better than me!

Stainz

 

[BSA]

The first S&W 637 Pro Port that I ordered was defective. It was replaced under warranty with a new revolver, same model.

I just returned from the shooting range. Shot with different ammo on various paper targets.

At 15 feet, all 158 grain ammunition tumbles like crazy. Also, at 15 feet, all 125 grain and 135 grain DO NOT tumble.

What the hell is going on with S&W? Regardless of the grain, my revolver should shoot it, period. Tomorrow their customer service is going to get an ear full.

What type of ammunition does S&W recommend in the owner's manual?

Remember when all else fails read the instructions.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I haven’t tried it much in my 637 but in my 629 I’m still trying to find the right lube for cast bullets to not lead so bad. It at least isn’t as bad as it used to be but I have to use thicker lube on it than my older 625 that I also use for cast bullets.

 

[scooter123]

I don't think the move to the new method of rifling is a cost cutting measure. Discharge machining is a very slow process when compared to traditional machining methods and time is Money.

I believe that the move to the new method is driven by 2 factors. One is that it's a very repeatable process and not prone to damage from a chipped cutter or inadequate coolant flow, which means that quality is actually improved. The other is that the much smoother surface finish means that you'll get a gain in velocity with jacketed bullets as seen in the octagonal rifling that Glock now uses. In a 4 inch Glock 9mm, that gain in velocity is reported to be between 150 and 200 fps.

Downside is that my experience is that this rifling is not well suited for use with lead bullets. Frankly, I believe that S&W should warn against using lead bullets in these barrels but at this point they are not doing that. I suspect that the reason is that the surface finish is smooth enough that common lubricants won't properly "wet out" in the barrel. Those who insist on shooting lead should probably investigate the various lubes available and report on what works and what doesn't. Personally, I suspect that a moly based lube may be the answer but that's just a guess.

If you're purchasing commercial ammo, I would suggest that you do as I do, that is to only use jacketed or semi jacketed ammo. You'll avoid the problems with leading and get velocity performance similar to shooting lead bullets in the older cut rifling.

Finally, if you can't accept these changes, there is a very simple answer. Don't purchase a new S&W, either get a used one or try and convince Colt to start making revolvers again.

Any manufacturer today is expected to engage in a process of continuous Quality improvement and meeting the expectations of their shareholders. If they don't do that, they don't survive. Part of that process means the use of MIM parts, newer methods of making a barrel and other "cost cutters". Personally, I find the MIM guns a LOT easier to tune the action on, so the use of MIM parts in my eye is an IMPROVEMENT. As for the new barrels, also a DISTINCT IMPROVEMENT. Yeah, I expect that'll fall on deaf ears. However, I've posted my results at 50 yards, if you think the older style rifling is more accurate, mount a scope on the gun of your choice and try and match those results.

 

[MrChubbs]

I spoke to a few reps at Smith & Wesson today. One representative suggested I fire a few additional hundred rounds to see if that resolved the issue. Unfortunately they're unwilling to mail me money to fund their experiment. I told them Bolsa Gunsmith, their authorized warranty repair center said I need to have my barrel replaced. I then asked to leave a message with their customer service manager. In the mean time their rep said to FedEx the pistol to them. I paid almost $79 for overnight shipping. Their manager had a rep call me to investigate my complaint. They asked that I fax over my shipping receipt so they could reimburse me. They said to call on Thursday. We'll see what happens.

 

[Az Rick]

Time to take a deep breath,......Okay, release. Seldom does a brand spanking new firearm shoot to it's potential.
I'm a firm believer that any new gun needs to be "shot in." That means a minimum of 200 but 300 rounds is probably better. These should be jacketed bullets, the cheaper the better. All you're trying to accomplish is to smooth the bore. At this point, we're not going to worry about cutting the X-ring out, as a matter of fact, hitting the paper is great.
I caution you here, this is the best time to practice trigger squeeze, grip pressure, sight alignment, breathing and wanting to cut the X-ring out. Every shot should be carefully aimed.
By the time you do this the bore will be smoothed, ready for lead.
It will tighten up group wise, and will shed many of it's bad habits. If you do your part.
If the gun doesn't perform after this, then contact the manufacturer.
Snubbies are harder to shoot well, not much barrel.
Good luck and go shooting

Best, Rick

 

[JT]

You might want to try conditioning your gun's bore with one of the high tech lubes, such as TW25B. It is made by Mil-Comm and extensively used by the US Military.

The spray version makes a great bore conditioner and also eases bore cleaning. It works especially well with the shallow rifling found in polygonal barrels such as Glock and HK. You can mix your own spray if you are so inclined.

Mil-Comm
On Point Suppy - Mil-Comm TW25B Dealer

 

[senecaap]

Any manufacturer today is expected to engage in a process of continuous Quality improvement and meeting the expectations of their shareholders. If they don't do that, they don't survive. Part of that process means the use of MIM parts, newer methods of making a barrel and other "cost cutters". Personally, I find the MIM guns a LOT easier to tune the action on, so the use of MIM parts in my eye is an IMPROVEMENT. As for the new barrels, also a DISTINCT IMPROVEMENT. Yeah, I expect that'll fall on deaf ears. However, I've posted my results at 50 yards, if you think the older style rifling is more accurate, mount a scope on the gun of your choice and try and match those results.

Yes there are "improvments" every year for every product, however as Burke said "History is the laboratory of change." Change is not in and of itself, improvement. I have no problem with MIM, I see it as a lateral move. Rifleing in a revolver that does not shoot lead bullets or bullets in the optimum weight for the cartridge?!? Sounds like another Remington EtronX project. If what is, is not broken and the "improvement" means not shooting lead bullets, not shooting bullets of a certain weight, and/or buying new lubes to shoot with any accuracy....well maybe your and my definition of improvement are different.

 

[blackflag]

The other is that the much smoother surface finish means that you'll get a gain in velocity with jacketed bullets as seen in the octagonal rifling that Glock now uses. In a 4 inch Glock 9mm, that gain in velocity is reported to be between 150 and 200 fps.

Can you explain that? How does the Glock barrel increase velocity and/or how is it similar to the S&W process?

 

[stashu]

I also have a issue with S&W quality---This is my 1st one. I just sent mine back for repairs:

S&W Company Sunday, May 22, 2011

FED-EX Return Tracking —shipped out 5/23/2011

Enclosed you will find an S&W Model 617 Serial # ******* Revolver. This is my 1st S&W Pistol and to be honest with you I am a little discouraged with the quality. After reading about the high quality of S&W I have found several flaws in the pistol which need to be addressed/repaired.
1. The ejector star has chips and burrs on it-see pics
2. The Barrel is canted causing the front sight to be off, the barrel needs to be straightened to be centered within the frame—see pics
3. The barrel has burrs “inside the frame—need to be deburred see pic
4. The side plate had small dimples “marks”-needs to be polished out--see pic.

The pistol was purchased new on 5/11/2011. I have attached a receipt. To be honest with you I would like a new gun as I am afraid the repair will cause new marks on the pistol. I am also afraid it will take too long to repair. I am a prior machinist and am surprised to find these blems on such a high quality pistol. My Ruger revolvers have none of these blems or issues.
If replaced Thank-you! if repaired can you have someone spend maybe 5 minutes or so to do a visual on the pistol to check the repairs and to BE SURE it’s repaired properly and up to NEW S&W standards and mine.
PS---since it is a NEW pistol already in for repairs a nice S&W sweatshirt LG would be nice for my inconvenience, I'm sure you agree.

Any questions please call
Thank-you

 

[Nemo288]

If you don't mind an idle left field question from someone who
owns none of these guns:

Have they changed the twist rate on them?

I own 6mm Rem rifles in various twist and the faster twist is needed
to stabilize the longest heaviest bullets. This has become an
issue these days with ever longer non-lead bullets becoming
used more often.
It took them decades but Marlin (and Winchester) finally figured
out that 1/38" didn't completely cut it in the 444 Marlin.
They finally moved to the 1/20 that most other .44's use.

---
Nemo

 

[Gatorbaiter]

Has anyone tried the copper plated cast lead bullets in this rifling to see if the plated bullets perform more like jacketed or lubricated cast bullets?