Trying to find some load data for this bullet using 2400. These are the typical commercial cast bullets commonly sold by most vendors. So does anyone have any or know where I can find some load data? I've looked at the Lyman data for their 215gr SWCGC bullet (#410610) but the data seems to be a bit on the conservative side. Basically I'm wondering if 18gr -19gr of 2400 is safe?
.41 mag w/215gr SWC & 2400?
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mkk41
US Veteran
Not all cast 41cal SWCs are created/cast equal. As I have posted many times , you must pay attention to how much 'shank' is going in the case. Some bullets will create a more compressed load. A lot of people use data from the 'Keith-style' 220gr Lyman 410459 , with has a short 'shank' and carries a lot of weight in it's long nose. As a result , data has a higher max charge. A short shank means more case capacity , as per Elmer Keiths design. Use max data for this bullet with a bullet with a longer shank (more in the case) , and you have a compressed load , and quite possibly , high pressure. True , 2400 likes a SLIGHTLY compressed charge and is more forgiving than faster powders.
I'm very much aware that all .41 SWC bullets aren't the same or created equal as pointed out, as well as bullet shank length too. I'm inquiring specifically about 215gr SWCBB as sold commercially by the various vendors. All of the cast 215gr SWCBB that I've seen appear to be identical, and cast from magma engineering molds as seen here http://www.magmaengineering.com/PDF/BBMar122011b.pdf. The typical commercial cast 215gr SWCBB that I'm using and seeking data for as cast by various manufacturers looks just like the one in the PDF file above.
If TVB had pics of their bullets I'd post a link however they look just like all of the others below.
.41 MAGNUM at .40 CALIBER HARD CAST LEAD
Missouri Bullet Company
.41 Caliber Cast Lead Bullet
If TVB had pics of their bullets I'd post a link however they look just like all of the others below.
.41 MAGNUM at .40 CALIBER HARD CAST LEAD
Missouri Bullet Company
.41 Caliber Cast Lead Bullet
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The current Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists a load for the Seaco #418 on page 267. It shows a starting load for 2400 as 14.5 grains with a max load of 16.2. I have discovered that 2400 is a powder that can deliver optimum results with less than max loads. I made this discovery over 30 yrs ago with my 29-2 and using the Lyman #429421. The loads that Lyman lists are usually good guidelines.
Steve C
Member
From my experience I wouldn't jump in and use 18 to 19 grs with a lead bullet without working up from the standard 10% reduction at 17.0 grs. 2400 is pretty sensitive to primer type and its best to use standard primers if loading hot. My Load book shows Lyman data with a maximum of 18.8grs of 2400 with their 215gr #410610 using Remington 2-1/2 primers so a load up to 18.8 should be safe with the right components.
I have loaded 17.5 grs of 2400 in Winchester cases with WLP primer for standard and magnum and Hornady 210gr XTP's. The WLP primers is essentially a magnum primer. These left the muzzle of my 6" M57 at 1,413 fps, about 200 fps faster than the manual said it should and they used the same pistol with 6" barrel for their tests. There was no pressure signs though.
Lead bullets produce higher velocities than jacketed bullets with the same load so I'd expect 215gr SWC's to be well above 1,400 fps with more powder and same case and primers.
From my experience I wouldn't jump in and use 18 to 19 grs with a lead bullet without working up from the standard 10% reduction at 17.0 grs. 2400 is pretty sensitive to primer type and its best to use standard primers if loading hot. My Load book shows Lyman data with a maximum of 18.8grs of 2400 with their 215gr #410610 using Remington 2-1/2 primers so a load up to 18.8 should be safe with the right components.
I have loaded 17.5 grs of 2400 in Winchester cases with WLP primer for standard and magnum and Hornady 210gr XTP's. The WLP primers is essentially a magnum primer. These left the muzzle of my 6" M57 at 1,413 fps, about 200 fps faster than the manual said it should and they used the same pistol with 6" barrel for their tests. There was no pressure signs though.
Lead bullets produce higher velocities than jacketed bullets with the same load so I'd expect 215gr SWC's to be well above 1,400 fps with more powder and same case and primers.
Thats interesting Steve, I worked up to 18.5gr of 2400 with Hornady & Sierra JHC 210gr bullets in Rem cases and CCI LP primers. The cases dang near fell out of my Ruger Blackhawk. Like you no pressure signs were obsereved. I decided to stop there as recoil and muzzle blast were quite substantial, I caught myself flinching. I'm not sure I'd want to work up to Hornady's suggested max load which I was 1.5gr under.
BTW thankyou bwelch47.
I have been told that the newer 2400 is hotter than it was in the old days.
Many moons ago, I used 19 grs of 2400 behind a 210 gr JHP for a duty load in a Model 58. It was pretty "salty" and not much fun to fire, but it was very effective.
I have no use or desire for a load that hot today.
Many moons ago, I used 19 grs of 2400 behind a 210 gr JHP for a duty load in a Model 58. It was pretty "salty" and not much fun to fire, but it was very effective.
I have no use or desire for a load that hot today.
rkrcpa
Member
I looked back at my load data for the 41 mag and find that I have used 18.5grs of 2400 with that bullet in the past. I do not see where I notated any pressure concerns with that load but obviously that is only in my particular revolver.
These loads date back to 1999 so I'm pretty sure that was the "old" 2400 as my supply just ran out a couple years back. This is a load I worked up to and was probably close to max.
Use due caution and work up the load in your revolver and you will probably be fine.
These loads date back to 1999 so I'm pretty sure that was the "old" 2400 as my supply just ran out a couple years back. This is a load I worked up to and was probably close to max.
Use due caution and work up the load in your revolver and you will probably be fine.
m657
Member
re: "I have no use or desire for a load that hot today."
so....it ISN'T just me then.....
so....it ISN'T just me then.....
That load was OK for shooting at people in or behind vehicles, but I don't do much of that anymore.
Very good advice. Above all, remember that the design of cast bullets varies greatly, particularly where they sit in the case, which of course has an effect on case volume, powder charges and resulting pressure. I have always used the Keith design bullet (from H&G molds). It sits out infront of the case more than some other designs and I have standardized on 19.0 grs. with a Federal 150 primer (Winchester cases). It yields about 1360 FPS in a 6-inch Model 57. Never have had the slightest trouble with that load in years of shooting it, but with any other bullet that sits back more in the case, I would expect to end up well below that.
In no case take my word for any of this. I consider that a top-end load in my guns and would follow the advice to start at 17.0 and go from there, carefully. The problem I always have with 2400 in the magnums is that it has a very narrow range where it settles down, burns cleanly, and gives good ES numbers on the chronograph. That always seem to be just a click below maximum, but the good part is, the loads have always been very accurate in my guns. So I like 2400 very much in 41s and 44s, but I do sometimes wish one could drop the charges back for a bit less recoil, and still get the same results.
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According to RCBS.load, Laser Cast had data showing that combination, using Oregon Trails commercial bullets, with a max load of 19.6 grains of 2400 and using WLP primers.
The question of safety is a little harder to answer. As Steve said, always work up to maximum loads, but there's more. Pushing the limits of max. pressure may not blow up the gun, but loading until you find pressure signs and then backing off a tenth of a grain can lead to other problems as well. Heavy loads, even within specs, will beat the weapon to death much faster than shooting mild to medium pressure loads, so for anyone that shoots a constant diet of heavy loads, you should keep an eye on the firearm for wear and possible damage as long as you shoot them, not just while you are developing the load.
The question of safety is a little harder to answer. As Steve said, always work up to maximum loads, but there's more. Pushing the limits of max. pressure may not blow up the gun, but loading until you find pressure signs and then backing off a tenth of a grain can lead to other problems as well. Heavy loads, even within specs, will beat the weapon to death much faster than shooting mild to medium pressure loads, so for anyone that shoots a constant diet of heavy loads, you should keep an eye on the firearm for wear and possible damage as long as you shoot them, not just while you are developing the load.
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Same here the load I have settled on for most of my uses is a 215gr SWC over 8.5gr of Unique. It is no weak sister either as it produces close to 1100fps from the 4 5/8" BH.
Trust me folks I'm not about to jump in with both feet and automatically load right up to the gunnels. Safety is always my first and foremost concern. As I stated in my last thread I stopped below the max charge with both the Sierra and Hornay bullets as recoil is stout enough for me. At18.5gr I'm .5gr below max according to the Sierra manual and 1.5gr according to the Hornady manual with their respective bullets. Accuracy is very good with both so I'm stopping there with the jacketed bullets.
However since this is a new revolverand I use cast bullets on a regular basis I want to work up a full power load utilizing the same 215gr SWC for those occasions it might be called for. I can assure you these won't be used on a regular basis.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
I am wondering too how much deader an animal will be with a 215gr @ 1100fps versus 1400fps @ 50 yards!
Oh, I like to see the 44Mag smoke right down the ol' trail but I shoot them in carbines for that!
My go to handgun loads for almost all of my large caliber, revolver rounds, 44Mag & 45 Colt is that same load of Unique or just a tad more. The bullets are a bit heavier, 240gr for the 44 and 270gr for the 45 Colt but still, they aren't weak sisters as 336A says!
Good for you. Safety and smarts! Have fun!
Oh, I like to see the 44Mag smoke right down the ol' trail but I shoot them in carbines for that!
My go to handgun loads for almost all of my large caliber, revolver rounds, 44Mag & 45 Colt is that same load of Unique or just a tad more. The bullets are a bit heavier, 240gr for the 44 and 270gr for the 45 Colt but still, they aren't weak sisters as 336A says!
Good for you. Safety and smarts! Have fun!
John Linebaugh is something of a guru when it comes to questions like this. He is an extensive tinkerer, and he probably has as thorough a background in it as anyone. He believes that a "practical" big-bore sixgun does all it can do with a heavy, flat-nose, lead bullet in the 1100-1200 FPS range - little is gained beyond that, and sometimes, things are lost. (Possibly here John is considering the ability of most shooters to hold on to that gun as it is launching those big, heavy bullets much faster than 1200 FPS.
)I believe him, but the problem I have with this is developing loads in magnum cases in that range that burn with the consistency that a 30,000+ PSI #2400 load does. The #2400 load is usually more than I want, but I cannot duplicate its excellence at a lower level.
One can mitigate this problem somewhat by switching to a slightly heavier (+10% or so) bullet and by taking care to use good cases with a solid crimp, but if one goes too heavy - say to 300+ grs in the 44 Magnum - sometimes there is a such a divergence in POA-POI that it cannot be corrected with the standard sights on a Model 29. This is where the easily-replaced front sight of the DX-series guns was a boon, but unfortunately for me, it came along after I had worn myself out shooting full-charge 44 Magnums. And of course a 300-gr/1100+ FPS 44 is definitely full-charge, as far as I am concerned. So nothing is gained there. It may be harder on the gun and shooter than the usual 250 at 1300.
Finding a nice, easy-shooting 44 load, particularly in the 1000-1100 FPS range, that burns cleanly, that does not lead, that the chronograph says is consistent from shot to shot, and that is accurate in most guns has been an elusive target, for me, at least. I don't have the same amount of experience with the .41, but I suppose it is the same thing there... ? I have always relied on Unique, but I have never been happy with it, and 231 is no better.
Lopez
Member
Have you tried Universal? It's similar to Unique but burns a bit cleaner. I did have some problems with it not burning completely and leaving unburnt flakes everywhere at the lower loading spectrum but I do all my midrange 44mag reloading with Universal now. 8.5g of Universal with a 240g cast swc has been very accurate for me in all my m29s and its a load I can shoot all day.
John Linebaugh is something of a guru when it comes to questions like this. He is an extensive tinkerer, and he probably has as thorough a background in it as anyone. He believes that a "practical" big-bore sixgun does all it can do with a heavy, flat-nose, lead bullet in the 1100-1200 FPS range - little is gained beyond that, and sometimes, things are lost. (Possibly here John is considering the ability of most shooters to hold on to that gun as it is launching those big, heavy bullets much faster than 1200 FPS.
I believe him, but the problem I have with this is developing loads in magnum cases in that range that burn with the consistency that a 30,000+ PSI #2400 load does. The #2400 load is usually more than I want, but I cannot duplicate its excellence at a lower level.
One can mitigate this problem somewhat by switching to a slightly heavier (+10% or so) bullet and by taking care to use good cases with a solid crimp, but if one goes too heavy - say to 300+ grs in the 44 Magnum - sometimes there is a such a divergence in POA-POI that it cannot be corrected with the standard sights on a Model 29. This is where the easily-replaced front sight of the DX-series guns was a boon, but unfortunately for me, it came along after I had worn myself out shooting full-charge 44 Magnums. And of course a 300-gr/1100+ FPS 44 is definitely full-charge, as far as I am concerned. So nothing is gained there. It may be harder on the gun and shooter than the usual 250 at 1300.
Finding a nice, easy-shooting 44 load, particularly in the 1000-1100 FPS range, that burns cleanly, that does not lead, that the chronograph says is consistent from shot to shot, and that is accurate in most guns has been an elusive target, for me, at least. I don't have the same amount of experience with the .41, but I suppose it is the same thing there... ? I have always relied on Unique, but I have never been happy with it, and 231 is no better.
longranger
Member
Remember to omit Blue Dot as a .41 Rem Mag,.44 Rem. Mag. and heavy .357 loads per Alliant Powder.I have gone through all of my reloading books and blacked Blue Dot out. Sierra still shows reloading info using Blue Dot in the .41 Mag.
I really like Clays in my .41 Rem. Mag.,.44.Rem Mag. and 45 Colt for target loads Auto Comp has been very good as well.I get better accuracy from those 2 powders than Unique and 2400 with alot less recoil.
I really like Clays in my .41 Rem. Mag.,.44.Rem Mag. and 45 Colt for target loads Auto Comp has been very good as well.I get better accuracy from those 2 powders than Unique and 2400 with alot less recoil.
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Skip Sackett
US Veteran
I am in route to my local powder pusher as we speak to get a pound of Universal. I have heard a lot of good things about it.
I too have had some one on one time with John Linebaugh over the phone. Great guy, lots of knowledge. 45 Colt loads are a passion for him. I run some of his thumpers in my Ruger 45 Convertible. 270gr @ 1400fps, yeah,wow!
I am also going to try some AA#7 for the STANDARD type of loads we are talking about here. 240gr 44@1000-1100 ought to hit it done.
Since the 41 is only .190" smaller in diameter than a 44 these loads should perform pretty much the same.
336A, not trying to hijack your thread. Maybe we can find some things that correlate from one caliber to another.
I too have had some one on one time with John Linebaugh over the phone. Great guy, lots of knowledge. 45 Colt loads are a passion for him. I run some of his thumpers in my Ruger 45 Convertible. 270gr @ 1400fps, yeah,wow!
I am also going to try some AA#7 for the STANDARD type of loads we are talking about here. 240gr 44@1000-1100 ought to hit it done.
Since the 41 is only .190" smaller in diameter than a 44 these loads should perform pretty much the same.
336A, not trying to hijack your thread. Maybe we can find some things that correlate from one caliber to another.
I am in route to my local powder pusher as we speak to get a pound of Universal. I have heard a lot of good things about it.
I too have had some one on one time with John Linebaugh over the phone. Great guy, lots of knowledge. 45 Colt loads are a passion for him. I run some of his thumpers in my Ruger 45 Convertible. 270gr @ 1400fps, yeah,wow!
I am also going to try some AA#7 for the STANDARD type of loads we are talking about here. 240gr 44@1000-1100 ought to hit it done.
Since the 41 is only .190" smaller in diameter than a 44 these loads should perform pretty much the same.
336A, not trying to hijack your thread. Maybe we can find some things that correlate from one caliber to another.
Not a problem Skip, I'm sure that there is a correlation even though calibers are different. To be honest I totally forgot about this article by John Linebaugh and re-read it Gunnotes...Smith & Wesson Mod 25-5
I'll be turning this .41 out on some piggies here soon and will post a follow up when done.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Of course you know we will demand pictures, sir!
Here piggy, piggy!
Gotta reread that article!
Here piggy, piggy!
Gotta reread that article!
