Casual Target Revolver Advice

[ttolliver]

So I'm looking at picking up a S&W in the next week or two and I'm nearing the end of the search. Any advice I can get on a couple questions would be greatly appreciated.

My purpose for this gun is to be a casual target gun. No intention to compete bullseye or anything. What I'm hoping for is the mechanical accuracy to punch one (maybe a little ragged) hole at 25 feet. That's the range I practice with my 9mm, and I figure if I get a quality enough gun to do that then it will remove the gun as a factor and allow me to work on my shooting skills.

I reload, so ammo cost is less of an issue.

So with all that being said, advice from my trusted gun shop is the 686 with 6" barrel in 357 magnum.

The thing is I've always had the need to be a little different, and I've latched onto the idea of firing 45 ACP (45 AR even better if I find a used one), or maybe even 45 LC.

I'll also say that I tend to prefer to buy new rather than used and worry about why the other person is selling something -- as in what headaches might I be buying. And I know this definitely limits my choices.

So here are the questions --

The 625 PC and 625 JM only have 4" barrels, whereas the 686 is still had in a 6". Is there that much more bullet stabilization in the extra 2", or is that extra length mostly an aid to sight radius?

I like the looks of the modern stainless revlover more than the classic look of the model 22 or 25, but would I be better off accuracy wise to go with the 25 in 45LC for the longer barrel and adjustable sights?

Ballistically speaking, is there an advantage to 45ACP/AR vs 357 magnum vs 38 special? (From what I've read, I'm thinking the answer to this is no -- all can be made equally accurate with 38 Special's slightly shorter length in a 357 Magnum chamber being the only hair to split).


Thanks,
Tom

 

[nicky4968]

I don't believe barrel length has anything to do with stabilization. It's like throwing a baseball. Once spun, the bullet keeps spinning. Think of how little time the ball spends on the fingers of the pitcher. Yet, it spins just fine.
One difference for shooting between 4" and 6" barrels is how good your eyes are. As you get older, a 4" barrel is more comfortable.
As to what cartridge to shoot, it comes down to whatever floats your boat.

 

[gr7070]

For your intended use either gun is just as capable as the other. If the .45 4" is what you want go for it. Personal preference is what really matters w/r to 4" v. 6" and .357 v. .45.

I think the 4" bbl is the better way to go, better balanced and a wider range of uses, as well. I happen to prefer the .357 over the .45, but again, this is all personal preference for these two comparisons.

About the only other thing to consider is the grip. The N-frame (.45) is a little bigger grip than the L-frame (.357). Just make sure you handle an N-frame before you buy, if all you have handled are L-frames. It's not a huge difference, but some may not like one or the other.

 

[PH-2]

tt,

If you get past the "new gun" requirement, I believe you can fairly easily find a LNIB (or without box/docs) model 15 4".
For your intended use, this weapon will excel! They are out there in quantity, just be picky and you wil be rewarded with an excellent mission-specific gun, at probably, 1/3 the cost of the other mentioned guns. .38 special is a very easy re-load, as well.

Mike

 

[ttolliver]

Thanks nicky4968 and gr7070. I appreciate the advice.

And the point about 4" sight radius being a little easier for older eyes is definitely one I hadn't considered -- as I sit here with 46 yr old eyes...

 

[ttolliver]

Thanks Mike.

A little voice in my head keeps telling me to hold off buying anything until after the local gun show in early October. Just in the short time I've been scanning forums and such it's amazing the number of times you run across people's best guns being undervalued finds.

 

[Buford57]

If the stainless look trips your trigger, the model 67 is the stainless sister of the 15. Either one makes a fine 25 year practice piece.

 

[gr7070]

A little voice in my head keeps telling me to hold off buying anything until after the local gun show in early October. Just in the short time I've been scanning forums and such it's amazing the number of times you run across people's best guns being undervalued finds.

I think gun shows are largely a waste of time. I have never seen a well priced gun at one, not one.

The good finds are those you happen to stumble into from individuals selling. It's like used cars. The dealer (who are the folks that buy booths at gun shows) is *not* the place to get a bargain, but a private party sale could be.

Can't hurt to go look. Certainly nothing wrong with taking your time and looking thoroughly! However, make sure you know what you are looking for and what they should cost before you buy - that holds true whether you're at a gun show or a LGS or the web, etc.

If you want to buy new go for it. S&W makes great guns today, don't let the back-in-my-day-ers discourage you. S&W also made some great guns in previous decades, too.

 

[Sprefix]

my vote is.............

I like the idea of a 625-6 .45 Colt and it can be made to shoot the rounds you want to fire to be different. My 625-6 is VERY accurate and fun to shoot. If it gets used for CCW, it has plenty of power for the "zombies". You can shoot loafer loads, or step up to some pretty serious power, if need be. JMO

 

[scooter123]

Just a couple of observations based on learning things the hard way.

One, shorter barrels are in general capable of better Mechanical accuracy than longer barrels. As for why, all gun barrels squirm around a bit when the bullet is transitting the barrel and the shorter the barrel, the less the muzzle can deflect from it's neutral point. If you are shooting with iron sights the longer sight radius tends to balance things out. However if you use optical sights you'll always find a short barrel to be capable of tighter groups as long as both barrels share similar diameters and profiles.

Second, barrels also rise while the bullet is transitting the barrel. It's called Bore Transit Recoil and achieving consistent recoil management is one of the most difficult aspect of shooting a handgun to learn. Now, increase the length of the barrel and the TIME that the bullet also increases. As a result, longer barrels require BETTER recoil management skills than a short barrel. I have a model 610 with a 6 1/2 inch barrel and it's taken me 2 years of work to improve my recoil management to the point where I am just now starting to shoot it as well as my 4 inch revolvers. BTW, it was a bit of a shock to me when I saw how easy it was to "throw" a flyer when I first got that 610, however putting in the time to gain those critical skills has proven worth the effort.

Finally, IMO 25 feet is a good starting point for a new shooter, however it shouldn't be your end goal when shooting for accuracy. Any of the guns you've mentioned are capable of shooting nickel sized holes at 25 feet in good hands. This means that in time you won't be able to see the effect of a minor flaw in technique.

If you really want to improve your accuracy at some point you'll have to start shooting at longer ranges where you'll be able to see your mistakes easily. Generally when I engage in precision shooting practice I'll start at 25 yards and start working back to 35 or 40 yards. If my eyes were younger I'd shoot at 50 yards, however without a scope I just can't see a target well enough at 50 yards. I also spend most of my time shooting for precision by using a rest of some type, either sandbags under the grip or by leaning on a lane wall. As for why my emphasis on shooting from a rest, it's simple, that is how I would use a handgun when hunting. One other benefit to shooting from a rest is that it's a superb way to improve your trigger release skills. BTW, you should NEVER support the barrel when shooting from a rest, you want to support your hands so that the same recoil management skills used when shooting offhand can be used when shooting from a rest.

Now for your question about choices. Both the 686 and 625 in a 4 inch barrel are superb choices to start with. I really wouldn't be too concerned about the difference in grip size between the L and N frames, from the trigger face to the recurve at the top of the backstrap the difference is only about 1/8 inch. Shopping around for a good fitting grip can easily make up for that tiny difference.

What may prove a more critical factor is the recoil. The 4 inch 686 loaded with 38 spl will have recoil that feels very similar to shooting a 9mm M&P. However, load that 686 up with some stout 357 Magnums and the recoil will shock you. Since you plan on reloading you can build "bridge" loads that allow you to work up to full house Magnums, something that forces those of us who don't reload into trying different calibers.

As for the 625, loaded with a pretty standard 890 fps. 230 gn. range load I find the recoil to be very similar to my 30 ounce, 40 caliber, Sig P239 shooting the hotter version of Speers 165 gr. Gold dots. For me it's proven to be a superb training platform for both my Sig and in working my way up to developing better recoil management with 357 Magnums. Basically, I am finding it a superb "bridge" gun. In addition I just love shooting with moon clips.

Now, one warning concerning the 625 JM. That is the serrated trigger is best described as a DNA sampling device. Unless you have calouses on your trigger finger about 1/8 inch thick I can guarantee that you'll be pulling that trigger and grinding on it with a Dremel. Because if you don't, just 50 rounds in double action will have your finger bleeding. BTW, IMO S&W is flat out crazy having the serrations on the trigger this sharp but they are and thus the warning.

 

[Hawker Man]

Model 14-3 or -4 6 inch 38 special. Reload with the 148 grain hollow base wad cutter over about 2.5 grains of clays powder. You cannot go wrong with that combination. I'm shooting a pre model 14, K38 Master Piece 5 screw that shoots wonderfully with that combination. The gun will do it if you can.

 

[kidneystones]

tom,

my 2 cents. i have 2 686 revolvers, a 4 inch and a 6 inch barrel. i have yet to have a day when i got the 4 to shoot as well as the 6. at 25 feet (8 yards), the difference is probably negligible, but at 25 yards it is pretty plain to see. but it could just be me.

now, as far as casual shooting only, at some point you may get tempted to try some competition. apparently, 6 inch revolvers are a no go, which is what made me buy the 4 inch one.

a suggestion, get what you think you prefer now, and then get the other one next year, just so you can try them side by side.

 

[Ashlander]

I like your reasoning on buying new -- avoiding the worry over why somebody is selling. That's a reasonable concern which I share -- except when it comes to law enforcement trade-ins. The cops upgraded to semi-autos and dumped the revolvers -- there are some good buys to be had. I have bought 3 cop trade-ins in the last several months and I just inspect them -- make sure the bore is good, the lock-up is reasonably tight, and that the timing appears to be in order. The price is well south of new.

GR7070 had a good comment on gun shows. If you go to guns shows for good deals, you'll probably be disappointed, but there can be a good selection and fair prices (if, as GR7070 says (paraphrasing), you do your homework -- you'll have a fair idea of what fair is).

At a decent-size gun show a couple weeks ago I bought a Model 66-7 with a 2 3/4" barrel (in excellent condition) for $470 out-the-door. Not a great deal, but it was fair and I was getting ready to pay the seller's initial asking price of $500 (with tax to be added) when he decided to sweeten the pot (and knock me off the fence). I really liked that gun. A new 686 (closest comparable new gun?) the price would have been hundreds more.

Good luck.

 

[ttolliver]

Thanks for the really great advice everyone. It's really helping me zero in on the 625PC.

And definitely agreed on the points about buying at gun shows and moving the targets back from 25 feet as I improve.

 

[ttolliver]

Even though I thought I was going 625 PC, I ended up going with a 625 JM.

A local shop had one of each on the shelf and I was able to handle and closely inspect both models. On paper the draw for the PC had been the performance center trigger job, but there didn't turn out to be that big of a difference between these two triggers -- and no difference in SA where I'll do most of my shooting. I also preferred the satin finish and the full underbarrel lug on the JM.

So once I got done trying to convince myself the PC was the better model, I happily walked out with the JM.

And Saturday at the range it did not disappoint

 

[MajorD]

used 4" smith model 10's at under 200 bucks outside beat from police carry inside like new- will give one ragged hole at 50 feet easily and often further. 25 feet is no challenge for any smith revolver at all.
My personal model 10 (a police trade in- rough on the outside smooth on the inside) will shoot 3 inch groups at 25 yards easily, and keep them within 6 inches at 50 yards as well. the only pistol I have that shoots more accurately is a semi custom 1911 in the 2k range.
if you intend to stick with short range (I grew up shooting bullseye so anything inside 25 yards is short range to me) the extra sight radius on a six inch isn't going to matter that much, and by all means I'd get used- cheaper just as accurate often smoother action due to use and they just put more effort into the actions years ago as opposed to today.

 

[18DAI]

Another vote for the model 14. The original one, not the so called "classic". I've got a 6" 14-5 and a PC 4" 14-6. Scary accurate. The full lug makes shooting 38 wad cutters feel like plinking with 22's.

Tack driving accuracy in a good looking revolver. Good luck with your decision! Regards 18DAI

 

[stantheman86]

Any S&W revolver will serve you as a casual shooter. I would just not choose an older j-frame, since they aren't the kind of guns you want to take to the range and run 400 rounds through in an afternoon.

I have a 6" 10-5 that will outshoot my 8 3/8" Model 14, so go figure That 6" 10-5 looks beat on the outside, it has a newer hammer and trigger, is totally non "collectible" but that thing is scary accurate in both DA and SA......... Barrel length,target sights, a "glass rod" SA break,and a "worked" action are not always indicators of overall accuracy. A also have a bone stock security trade in 64-7 that shoots ragged holes in DA at 15 yards. You just never know. Each gun is an individual.

 

[scooter123]

I think you made a wise choice in the 625 JM, however if you do any shooting with it double action you'll probably come to hate that serrated trigger, it's like a bundle of razor blades.

First thing I did with my 625 JM was to tune the action and pull the trigger and grind about 70% of the serations down and polish the face. Now it's MUCH more comfortable to shoot in double action and I don't have to worry about bleeding all over a brand new gun.

As for it's accuracy, last time at the range I put the first two shots in double action into the X ring at 30 feet with a seperation between centers of only 5/16 inch. I was quite tempted to just call it a day, it's pretty darned rare for me to nearly put two bullets into the same hole. However I had 16 moon clips loaded up for it and a loose box of 50 so I shot all the ammo I had with me. Finished up in slow fire double action at 50 feet for the last 24 rounds shooting head shots at 50 feet on a B-27R and only missed 5 times. Flat out the 625 is fast becoming my favorite shooter, it's accurate, the recoil is easy to handle, and it's easy to shoot well with. About the only problem is that after nearly 150 rounds in about 15 minutes it was so hot I wish I had thought to wear gloves.

 

[Engineer1911]

Three hours at a gun show is cheaper then a movie and popcorn. You get to fondle at the gun show.