Discreet vs Concealed Carry

[Springfeildkid585]

Here is the exact wording of the law:

Duties of Permittees
The permit shall be retained by the permittee who shall immediately produce it upon the request of any law enforcement officer. Anyone who fails to do so shall be fined not more than one hundred dollars. Additionally, when any peace officer approaches a permittee in an official manner or with an identified purpose, the permittee shall:

1.Notify the officer that he has a weapon on his person;

2.Submit to a pat down;

3.Allow the officer to temporarily disarm him.

In your state, not mine. In my state we stick to the constitution.

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation"

 

[oldman45]

In your state, not mine. In my state we stick to the constitution.

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation"

Nope, different application. I assure you that your police does not have to wait until a grand jury indictment to detain someone. The law you quote is not for detainment on traffic offense or a "stop & talk" What does your concealed weapons law say?

Added: I went to the IN web site on concealed carry. It says that it is "suggested" that you notify an officer immediately that you have a firearm on your person or in your car and you have a permit. Then the officer has the right to inspect the permit. Nothing indicates the officer shall disarm you. The law in LA is a more strict about contact with LEO but we are far more relaxed in many other gun laws such as vehicle carry, obtaining a permit and other areas of the laws.

 

[Armed Babysitter]

I'm all for open carry, glad its legal here, but I don't do it in a public setting. I much prefer to keep my weapon concealed, out of sight, with my eyes and ears open. I have no moral objection to open carry, but I have a "tactical"(I hate that word tactical) objection to it. I don't want to give up my advantage that I'm armed. There may not be much conclusive evidence one way or the other concerning open carry making an individual the "shoot him first" target, but I'd rather not take my chances.

I prefer to be the guy in the crowd who is heavily armed, aware of his surroundings, who no one pays attention to or gives a second look to.

 

[Springfeildkid585]

I'm all for open carry, glad its legal here, but I don't do it in a public setting. I much prefer to keep my weapon concealed, out of sight, with my eyes and ears open. I have no moral objection to open carry, but I have a "tactical"(I hate that word tactical) objection to it. I don't want to give up my advantage that I'm armed. There may not be much conclusive evidence one way or the other concerning open carry making an individual the "shoot him first" target, but I'd rather not take my chances.

I prefer to be the guy in the crowd who is heavily armed, aware of his surroundings, who no one pays attention to or gives a second look to.

Heavily armed? What are you concealing a Kalashnikov?

 

[Lost Lake]

I'll bite... What is heavily armed??

 

[photoman]

I'll bite... What is heavily armed??

Three handguns, four reloads, two folders and a tac flashlight. It's not that hard to do.

 

[Armed Babysitter]

Heavily armed? What are you concealing a Kalashnikov?

I'll bite... What is heavily armed??

Full size M&P9, spare mag, sometimes two. The "heavily" part is kind of a joke in reference to a comment made to me by an anti-gun former neighbor. He said "Its bad enough you gun nuts carry guns, but I see no need to leave the house "heavily" armed with a gun AND a spare "clip"!"

 

[Springfeildkid585]

Full size M&P9, spare mag, sometimes two. The "heavily" part is kind of a joke in reference to a comment made to me by an anti-gun former neighbor. He said "Its bad enough you gun nuts carry guns, but I see no need to leave the house "heavily" armed with a gun AND a spare "clip"!"

Kinda reminds me of the time I was about sixteen and my dad's neighbors saw me walking across the lawn with a Ruger Mk. II on my hip, three mags sticking out my back pocket and a machete in my hand. I was just walking over to the little valley we shoot in and was clearing the weeds so I could see my targets, but boy did I look like a wingnut.

 

[celticfisherman]

Well.. I had no idea this would go on for 13 pages...

Why do those who feel CCW is THE only acceptable way get so ticked when someone wants to carry open? Guys... It's a choice for some of us. Those of you who don't get that choice... Well work a little harder.

 

[oldman45]

I hope posting this does not violate any rules here but if someone will read the article, they can learn from it.

Debate: Concealed carry vs open carry gun laws - Debatepedia

There is good info for both sides. As I have said often, I carry both ways, depending on the need. Each is legal. Today I will carry concealed. Yesterday I carried openly. Depending on what I am doing tomorrow will depend on how I have to carry.

I carry a full size 1911 virtually all the time. There are those that say it cannot be concealed easily. I do not have a problem doing so. There are those that say OC is dangerous since someone is going to attempt to take my gun from me. That has not happened in 45 yrs of carrying.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Springfeildkid585]

I hope posting this does not violate any rules here but if someone will read the article, they can learn from it.

Debate: Concealed carry vs open carry gun laws - Debatepedia

There is good info for both sides. As I have said often, I carry both ways, depending on the need. Each is legal. Today I will carry concealed. Yesterday I carried openly. Depending on what I am doing tomorrow will depend on how I have to carry.

I carry a full size 1911 virtually all the time. There are those that say it cannot be concealed easily. I do not have a problem doing so. There are those that say OC is dangerous since someone is going to attempt to take my gun from me. That has not happened in 45 yrs of carrying.

Different strokes for different folks.

I am skeptical of the above link as it actually recommends committing what is a felony in Indiana and I believe most other states in the concealed Pros. Never should you show a concealed weapon when you see a suspicious person. If you have reason to show, you had better have reason to draw and fire. It's a yes/no thing. If you want someone to know you're armed, carry openly.

 

[oldman45]

I am skeptical of the above link as it actually recommends committing what is a felony in Indiana and I believe most other states in the concealed Pros. Never should you show a concealed weapon when you see a suspicious person. If you have reason to show, you had better have reason to draw and fire. It's a yes/no thing. If you want someone to know you're armed, carry openly.

Granted, showing a firearm can be called "brandishing" in some areas. Those with open carry will not have brandishing laws.

Notice the link has both pro and con. The link is talking about states with open carry. There is no point in discussing it unless your state allows open carry. More states are adding OC but not all allow it at this time.

 

[Springfeildkid585]

Granted, showing a firearm can be called "brandishing" in some areas. Those with open carry will not have brandishing laws.

Notice the link has both pro and con. The link is talking about states with open carry. There is no point in discussing it unless your state allows open carry. More states are adding OC but not all allow it at this time.

My state does not specify on carry, with a handgun permit you may carry your weapon and how you choose to do so is your own business, however; purposely indicating the weapon as is mentioned is banishing. If I am carrying with my jacket covering my weapon and I take off my jacket because I feel a tad warm, that is fine. It is my right. If I'm in the crosswalk with my jacket still on, a car pulls up and honks at me and gives me the old one finger peace sign and I pull back my jacket to show him I am armed, I'm banishing and it's the same as threatening him with my gun because that's exactly what it is. A man who is open carrying can brandish as well, placing my hand on the weapon in a threatening manor, looking at someone, then my sidearm, then the person again in a threatening manor would also work. So actually there is at least one place I know with open carry that has brandishing laws. I can also tell you that I would perceive the above actions as a threat on my life and be justified in answering with deadly force.

 

[oldman45]

. I can also tell you that I would perceive the above actions as a threat on my life and be justified in answering with deadly force.

And you would be in jail. A person can show they are armed. A person can say they will kill you. Neither has broken a law until they actually attempt to harm you.

I am allowed to use the limits of force used against me. If a man is armed, I cannot pull a gun unless he begins to pull his. SHowing a gun can take place in many forms. Different people will take the display of weapons differently. Yet the mere showing of a weapon in a public display will not justify deadly force.

The same can be said for a home owner announcing to a burglar that they are armed and will shoot. Does that give the perp the right to shoot first just because they have been put on notice that someone MAY shoot them? You can and are allowed to show a weapon when you feel it might be needed but until you reach for it, a person best not shoot you.

I know a detective that was almost ran over by a car. The officer pulled his jacket back in the event the person was trying to hit him on purpose. The driver then proceeded to run over the cop. The officer drew, fired and killed the driver.

There is nothing wrong with the display of a gun in an attempt to downplay violence.

Again, the sight of a gun keeps trouble down.

 

[blujax01]

... A person can show they are armed. A person can say they will kill you. Neither has broken a law until they actually attempt to harm you.

....

Do you just make this stuff up for the sake of stirring the pot or are you really that ignorant of the law?

 

[oldman45]

Do you just make this stuff up for the sake of stirring the pot or are you really that ignorant of the law?

With all due respect, I work with the law and courts daily. I prepare cases for prosecution and occasionally, for the defense as well as civil cases. I know the law in this area. I have dealt with everything from homicide to accidents in courts.

If you ran me through WestLaw you will find I have set several precedents in court that held through the Supreme Courts.

So, yes I know the law and have over 700 court cases behind me.

How many do you have?

 

[oldman45]

What many here may fail to understand is that laws vary from state to state. What is not a crime in one state may be a felony in another.

When I am called in as an expert in a state other than LA, I have to research the laws of that state. As an example, a LA resident went to TX and was openly carrying. He was arrested. No defense for him. The law was different. This is why I often tell people to check the laws in the state involved.

In many instances, the laws are often vague at best.

 

[Armed Babysitter]

Granted, showing a firearm can be called "brandishing" in some areas. Those with open carry will not have brandishing laws.

Thats not true. Open carry has nothing to do with brandishing. Brandishing is the intentional showing of a pistol as a means of intimidation. Having your shirt ride up while getting out of the car exposing your pistola is not brandishing, pulling up your shirt and exposing the gun to someone is.

Open carry is legal here, and there are brandishing laws on the books.

 

[Old cop]

My gun, carried daily, is always CONCEALED. If someone gives me the digital salute I ignore it and walk away. My reaction was different if challenged when I was on the job (LEO '68 - '97) and someone was probably going to jail. In retirement I am not looking for trouble and will not react until physically challenged, and there is no avenue of escape for me.

Remember if you use the gun law enforcement will make you account for every round, and you will probably be arrested. Regardless of the outcome it will be expensive and has the potential to change/ruin your life.

I offer this only to remind everyone that carrying is an awsome responsibility. Please know the law and conduct yourself accordingly.

Best to All,
Old Cop

 

[Springfeildkid585]

And you would be in jail. A person can show they are armed. A person can say they will kill you. Neither has broken a law until they actually attempt to harm you.

I am allowed to use the limits of force used against me. If a man is armed, I cannot pull a gun unless he begins to pull his. SHowing a gun can take place in many forms. Different people will take the display of weapons differently. Yet the mere showing of a weapon in a public display will not justify deadly force.

The same can be said for a home owner announcing to a burglar that they are armed and will shoot. Does that give the perp the right to shoot first just because they have been put on notice that someone MAY shoot them? You can and are allowed to show a weapon when you feel it might be needed but until you reach for it, a person best not shoot you.

I know a detective that was almost ran over by a car. The officer pulled his jacket back in the event the person was trying to hit him on purpose. The driver then proceeded to run over the cop. The officer drew, fired and killed the driver.

There is nothing wrong with the display of a gun in an attempt to downplay violence.

Again, the sight of a gun keeps trouble down.

I the case of the home owner the intruder has just committed a felony and the owner is reasonably in fear for his life. Intimidation is a crime in most states if not all sir, and the majority of states allow direct threat of deadly force as reasonable cause to respond with deadly force. Is it a crime for a man to enter a bank show his gun, and politely ask if anyone could spare some change?

I will give an example of a court case I've heard: man hears what he believed to be a gunshot in the middle of the night. He tells his wife to call 911 after verifying she is unharmed, grabs his pistol and rushes to his car to follow a car he sees speeding off. When the other car stops, not realizing they were being perused the man jumps out of his car and draws down on the assailants telling them not to move and that the police are on their way. The driver seems to make a sudden move, he shoots and kills him believing he is reaching for the gun they just used to shoot at his house. The suspect turned out to be a fifteen year old boy, armed only with a slingshot, which had indeed shot through the window, with the vacuum sealed glass making a sound similar to a gun shot. The man was cleared of all charges as he thought he was acting in self defense at the time.

So no, they don't have to be in the process of doing you harm, you just have to have reason to believe they are posing an imminent threat on your life. In placing your hand on the weapon in a threatening manor, you have posed an imminent threat on my life. Deadly force authorized.